I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats
Glad I am not the only one who thought this.
Otokichi
31–40 of 78 posts
Re: Otokichi
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a direct answer to your question, the Polynesians populated much of the vast Pacific ocean and founded many island native lineages. There is some strong evidence they came into contact with West Coast American natives within the last couple thousand years [0]. > We find conclusive evidence for prehistoric contact of Polynesian individuals with Native American individuals (around AD 1200) contemporaneous with the…
It's probably a good idea to point out that the evidence for Polynesian/S. American contact is extremely scant and mostly conjectural. This is a very controversial topic among archeologists and historians and there are biased interpretations on both sides.
Isn't there some speculation about Chumash dugout making techniques too around Santa Barbara?
Re: Otokichi
#33I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats
To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)
Re: Otokichi
#34Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…
If they wanted to get them to shore, they could have thrown anchor at any spot other than next to a fortress armed with guns. Then you row them to the shore and leave. It's not like there was mass surveillance or ability to identify anyone. It's likely the captain had no big incentive to go out of his way for these Japanese so when he wasn't allowed in port, he just left.
Good points, I took a deeper look and found this article with more details:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_incident
> King anchored at a safe distance, out of range of the shore batteries. Men from several small fishing ships boarded the SS Morrison, and sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the ship. Hundreds of small boats, each with a small cannon at the front, also started to surround and attack the ship. The Morrison sailed away, with little damage.
> King then sailed to Kagoshima in Kyūshū.[2] The first day he met some officials there, who took two of the castaways into custody. The following day, a fisherman came alongside and warned the sailors to leave immediately. As the ship was setting its sails, the Japanese opened fire from cannons they had moved to the proximity of the ship during the night. King decided to abandon the mission and returned to Canton with the remaining castaways.
...and eventually:
> The nature of the ship's mission became known one year after the event, and this resulted in increased criticism of the Edict.
So it sounds like a lot of ignorance collided with the Big Foreign Ship phenomenon and the castaway got caught in the middle. Some lucky, some not so lucky (for now)
Re: Otokichi
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Leaving Japan was punishable by death
Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?
in the wiki article it's stated twice that they feared coming back due to this (once going back only disguised as a Chinese person. Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity). I'd bet it's a question of credibility. E.g. would you risk that the Japanese do not believe you and hence kill you? It's tough.
Re: Otokichi
#36I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats
To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)
That's expectancy at birth. If you made it to 20, you were likely to make it to 60, even in the mid 1800s.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...
Re: Otokichi
#37I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats
To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)
average life expectancy is a trap -- the distribution is binomial. People tended to either die early, as infants, or live to an average 60.[0] Specifically, if you were age 0, you have an expected lifespan of 40, but by age 10, you have an expected lifespan of 60. Today expected lifespan after reaching age 10 is better, but not as extreme as the average tells you: you'd expect to hit to live to 77. [1]
So most people who were actually wandering out of their cribs would have found 60 to be a perfectly normal age; and 40 would still be middle aged -- the past wasn't that much different from the present :)
you just wouldn't expect to see great-grandfathers as often (but at the same time, you don't see many today because the average first child-birth age has shifted upwards as well[2])
[0] https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expecta...
[1] https://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-...
[2] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-Average-maternal-age-a...
Re: Otokichi
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?
in the wiki article it's stated twice that they feared coming back due to this (once going back only disguised as a Chinese person. Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity). I'd bet it's a question of credibility. E.g. would you risk that the Japanese do not believe you and hence kill you? It's tough.
> Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity
The second time he went back, it was apparently as part of the group negotiating the Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty[1], so it makes sense he wouldn't necessarily fear being killed
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Trea...
Re: Otokichi
#39I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats
To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)
Fool. You thought you could just tap into a community of chronic mansplainers and pedants to mention historic life expectancy without the “infant mortality rate” caveat?
Re: Otokichi
#40Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't sho…
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