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Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

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Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#31

Post by maest »

toast0 wrote: post #25
bigmattystyles wrote: post #2

Do exchanges like HF traders? I know HF traders themselves justify their own existence by claiming they provide liquidity to the markets, but I've always just sort-of rolled my eyes at that. They only extract value and provide none, in my opinion, tax the profits heavily. I think every exchange should pad each order by a random number between 0 and 250ms, it would take care of it. The company profiled in this video a…

Exchanges generally like (and provide incentives to) orders that add liquidity, which means orders that do not execute immediately. HFT orders are generally intended to not execute immediately, so exchanges would tend to like them. Of course, HFT also usually pays higher connection fees to get closer to the exchange, which probably doesn't hurt their relations with the exchange. The dark pools that HFT firms setup to…

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think you can safely attribute broker commissions going to 0 to HFTs.

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#32

Post by toast0 »

maest wrote: post #31
toast0 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exchanges generally like (and provide incentives to) orders that add liquidity, which means orders that do not execute immediately. HFT orders are generally intended to not execute immediately, so exchanges would tend to like them. Of course, HFT also usually pays higher connection fees to get closer to the exchange, which probably doesn't hurt their relations with the exchange. The dark pools that HFT firms setup to…

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think you can safely attribute broker commissions going to 0 to HFTs.

Payment for order flow comes from dark pools, run mostly by HFT. Payment for order flow incentives brokers to get more trades, and reduced commissions gets more trades. I don't know that other brokers would have gone all the way down to $0 without Robinhood pushing them, but they were already down to $5-$10.

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#33

Post by ohazi »

cozzyd wrote: post #20

Hope we don't see VHF or UHF traders soon.

There aren't a lot of advantages to VHF/UHF over the direct microwave links that they're already using (and a handful of disadvantages), so it's probably not likely.

The big perceived advantage to HF is eliminating all of the hops, despite the dramatically reduced bandwidth. With VHF/UHF, you'd still need the hops, but you also have reduced bandwidth. If you need to hop, might as well make use of the bandwidth that you can get with microwave.

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#34

Post by allenrb »

ajkjk wrote: post #26

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see the whole HFT industry be deleted. What a waste of human intellect.

I’ve spent some time working in electronic trading, and I agree with you. Not only is the compensation very comfortable, but it’s the most interesting work I’ve ever done. That’s a tough combination to resist.

As a result, it attracts people who should be out there curing cancer, developing new technologies, researching fundamental sciences, and so forth. It’s something everyone around me has acknowledged at one point or another.

And yes, there is real benefit to providing liquidity. And yes (to another poster) exchanges love them some sweet, sweet algorithmic trader action.

IMHO this is a “bug” in capitalism that can’t be edited out by tweaking a line or two. I don’t know what the right answer is.

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#35

Post by cl0ckt0wer »

walrus01 wrote: post #18

For HFT purposes, it's hard to hide an intercontinental range HF antenna, particularly a directional one. I know at least 3 locations not far from the illinois CME datacenter, out in some fields, with huge yagi-uda antennas aimed at London and tokyo.

What altitude would you have to be at to have line of site to Tokyo and London from Chicago?

They're probably aimed somewhere above and in between https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#36

Post by jimbob45 »

bigmattystyles wrote: post #2

Do exchanges like HF traders? I know HF traders themselves justify their own existence by claiming they provide liquidity to the markets, but I've always just sort-of rolled my eyes at that. They only extract value and provide none, in my opinion, tax the profits heavily. I think every exchange should pad each order by a random number between 0 and 250ms, it would take care of it. The company profiled in this video a…

Could we not simply “batch” every trade within a second (or some nominal time value) to be concurrently executed?

I like your idea though.

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#37

Post by [deleted] »

jaywalk wrote: post #7
intrepidhero wrote: post #5

Wouldn't a high frequency trader be building point to point links and thus benefit hugely from highly directional antennas? Seems like that would help with the interference quite a bit.

A point to point link from Chicago to NYC would require many hops along the way, which is what they have with microwave today. The whole point of experimenting with the 20 meter band is to eliminate those hops.

[deleted]

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#38

Post by CraigJPerry »

Chicago to London one way is around 35ms over fibre but that could be down to 21ms over the air like this.

That signal is only about 10-15khz wide[1] from that diagram. That’s not a whole lot of data transfer ability, measured in the low kbps range rather than mbps. Very low kbps when you add in error correction.

We are moving out of / have left the solar minimum so the MUF is usually well above the 20 metre band each day now so going forward, it might be a good capability to have while it lasts for the next 8 years or so.

[1] I don’t know what scale division the ticks at the top represent but the SSB signals to the left would be up to around 3khz wide.

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#39

Post by jimbob45 »

toast0 wrote: post #32
maest wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think you can safely attribute broker commissions going to 0 to HFTs.

Payment for order flow comes from dark pools, run mostly by HFT. Payment for order flow incentives brokers to get more trades, and reduced commissions gets more trades. I don't know that other brokers would have gone all the way down to $0 without Robinhood pushing them, but they were already down to $5-$10.

Wasn’t Zecco doing $0 commissions back in 2006 already?

Re: Intruder at the top of the 20 meter amateur band?

#40

Post by secfirstmd »

allenrb wrote: post #34
ajkjk wrote: post #26

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see the whole HFT industry be deleted. What a waste of human intellect.

I’ve spent some time working in electronic trading, and I agree with you. Not only is the compensation very comfortable, but it’s the most interesting work I’ve ever done. That’s a tough combination to resist. As a result, it attracts people who should be out there curing cancer, developing new technologies, researching fundamental sciences, and so forth. It’s something everyone around me has acknowledged at one poin…

Yep. Some of the brightest minds in the world, including many of my friends, are wasted figuring out how to make more money from online clicks.
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