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Do not compare EU salaries with the US

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Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#31

Post by Normal_gaussian »

AntiImperialis4 wrote: post #15
jason0597 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the Twitter thread? The person writing the Twitter thread clearly outlines their feelings about the need to contribute to the social safety net. > I wanna give back, im okay with that > I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs

Yes, I did read the whole thread. Nobody is stopping one from voluntarily donating to a non-profit or for-profit organization, or being involved in one for that matter. In Europe, most people don't work 3 jobs because either it's not legal to do so or those jobs don't exist because of debilitating regulations... or at some point, making more isn't really worth it because of how high the taxes go up.

The financial efficiency of a well managed charitable organisation is atrocious compared to state programs. This is largely due to state programs having the capability to actually solve problems.

Eliminating working three jobs is desirable, it isnt debilitating to prevent exploitation of workers, its enabling. Setting a minimum wage and maximum working hours creates a minimum quality of life.

For most people this is desirable. As far as I can see you'd either have to be a sadist, or incredibly obsessed with how well off you are vs others to not want this.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#32

Post by rayiner »

Whatever your politics, we should endeavor to stop giving oxygen to rhetoric that misstates easily verifiable facts:

> I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs

About 5% of people work more than one job in the US: https://www.qualityinfo.org/-/it-takes-two-or-more-oregon-s-...

In Germany, where the author is based, that figure is 3.5 million of a labor force of 45 million--over 7% https://www.dw.com/en/germany-more-and-more-people-work-mult...

> My father is disabled and my mom had the mentioned medical issues.

Portugal has a disability pension of 430 euro per month: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/progdesc/ssptw/2018-2019/eur...

The average Social Security Disability benefit in the U.S. is $1,260 per month: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/082015/what-are-max...

Additional benefits are paid to disabled workers with families--the average is $2,200. That is higher than the cost-of-living (PPP) adjusted average monthly wage in Portugal.

> My mom had cancer on minimum wage back in Portugal and we didn't pay a fucking cent

A minimum wage worker with a disabled spouse would almost certainly be eligible for Medicaid, which has extremely low out-of-pocket costs: https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/cost-sharing/cost-sharing-...

You can take anecdotes and spin out a story that is highly misleading. You can find people abusing public benefits and spin out a myth about "welfare queens." But you can also find plenty of people who have fallen through the cracks of the system for whatever reason, and spin out a myth that we have no safety net and people are dying in the streets.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#34

Post by AntiImperialis4 »

kamyarg wrote: post #7
AntiImperialis4 wrote: post #2

DO compare it and see how much one can end up saving in a given time in the US, even after paying for healthcare, education etc.

Per the author's twit, without the higher taxes etc. they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup. Also, yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled(As the author explains), realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills.

>they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup.

Maybe if her parents didn't have to pay so much in taxes, they'd be able to save for her education... or she'd be able to pay back in no time, specially because of the amount of money she could be making.

>yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled, realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills.

That's not achieved by magic. It's just an insurance scheme, but at a national level, and you can't opt out even if you have different values. Not only that, you don't magically get better care either, because you still have to fight for limited medical resources. In most European countries, it's achieved by nepotism or corruption. In some others, you have an option of buying additional private insurance on top of the national scheme, which if you make enough is a no brainer because of how bad the waiting is, depending on what illness you happen to get.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#35

Post by africanboy »

JPKab wrote: post #25
tao_oat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think her fears are, and why are they unfounded? I understood her primary point as being about inequality and justice: "I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs"

I grew up in a family whose income put us below poverty line. I didn't have to pay for college, due to Pell grants, yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money. That's just not a thing. But the media in the US creates that impression for Europeans. Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die. Not accurate. Medicare, medicaid, etc. Not saying its good, jus…

> yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money

No, she actually thinks that an average (or below average, or without some exceptional physical skill etc. etc.) student can't go to college without money.

That's a non issue here in Europe (generally).

> Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die

You still have to pay for it.

Without premium insurance premiums forget about premium health care.

Here in Europe is not perfect, bu paying more is not necessary to get better health care.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#36

Post by dionidium »

tao_oat wrote: post #9
exabrial wrote: post #3

It seems she's fairly ignorant of how things work here as the vast majority of his fears are unfounded. That's ok though, the point about comparing salaries is very valid, there's extreme cost of living differences among many other things. For a lot of Americans, the fear we have is being completely dependent on the government. Look at who is exiting presidential office, look who is entering. Attaching our fates to t…

What do you think her fears are, and why are they unfounded? I understood her primary point as being about inequality and justice: "I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs"

For starters, “most” people don’t work three jobs, obviously, and the U.S. is in fact a very wealthy country with a vast middle class. Second, anybody who wants to can go to college. I went on student loans and Pell Grants. Third, we don’t have universal health care in this country, but poor people actually do get care and are insured, via Medicaid. Cancer patients aren’t left to die in the street.

It’s good that there are so many discussions on the internet about the people who fall though the cracks, but it can create an inaccurate picture of reality, which is what seems to have happened to this observer. On the facts, she has a confused understanding of both the typical and the extreme American experience.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#37

Post by code4tee »

Very little in this post is true and highlights the sort of false image people paint of the US:

- Most people work multiple jobs to make ends meet: False

- Low income people don’t have health coverage: False

- The US doesn’t have any form of government safety net health coverage for its people: False. Medicaid covers low income population and Medicare covers the older population.

Not saying any of the above is perfect but these false pictures people paint of the US deserve to be called out.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#38

Post by marcinzm »

kamyarg wrote: post #7
AntiImperialis4 wrote: post #2

DO compare it and see how much one can end up saving in a given time in the US, even after paying for healthcare, education etc.

Per the author's twit, without the higher taxes etc. they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup. Also, yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled(As the author explains), realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills.

They'd realistically have Medicaid in the US which doesn't have high out of pocket costs. Probably social security payments for disability and various other government programs. Some programs would even pay the mother (or a relative) to stay home and help their disabled spouse. Community college is fairly inexpensive in the US so there's that as well.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#39

Post by mkl95 »

A few things about the EU's (especially southern / eastern EU) job market:

- There is a job shortage at the moment. This is not as acute in tech but the situation in tech is not good either.

- Startups are chronically poor. There is little investment in startups and it's hard to secure it. If you are involved with a small startup it's likely it has existed for 5+ years and it has never had a round of more than €100k.

- Companies can't just compete with each other here the way they do in the US. There are a number of EU laws that limit job mobility and competition, which mostly affect tech / engineering / insert qualified trade. This is an issue for companies and workers.

- Salaries are low when compared to rent and property prices.

Feel free to avoid the EU vs US salary conversation. As a developer in the uglier side of the EU I know experienced developers in the not-so-well-off states of the US are doing way better than experienced developers in the not-so-well-off countries of the EU.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#40

Post by biggermike »

africanboy wrote: post #35
JPKab wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a family whose income put us below poverty line. I didn't have to pay for college, due to Pell grants, yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money. That's just not a thing. But the media in the US creates that impression for Europeans. Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die. Not accurate. Medicare, medicaid, etc. Not saying its good, jus…

> yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money No, she actually thinks that an average (or below average, or without some exceptional physical skill etc. etc.) student can't go to college without money. That's a non issue here in Europe (generally). > Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die You still have to pay for it. Without premium insurance premiu…

> You still have to pay for it.

You don't, actually. Medicaid is a de-facto single payer system (with the caveat that it's funded by both federal and state governments).

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