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What Is Life? (2019)

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Re: What Is Life? (2019)

#31
post #29

My own personal definition of life is the following, somewhat hand-wavy, theoretically weak, though pragmatically strong definition: Life is anything capable of sloppy self-replication in a sufficiently complex environment. Viruses are definitely alive. Something like Tierra [1], Avida[2], or modern variants[3] of mutating copying programs come close, giving rise to whole ecosystems of parasites and hosts and defense…

Counterpoint: If viruses are alive then anything can be alive, given that some machine exists which would make copies of it. ie. if there was a shower-caddy copying machine, then suddenly shower-caddies could be alive. In a world with a different life architecture, viruses would likely just be random an uninteresting molecules.

>Counterpoint: If viruses are alive then anything can be alive, given that some machine exists which would make copies of it.

>ie. if there was a shower-caddy copying machine, then suddenly shower-caddies could be alive.

If the shower caddys underwent sloppy replication allowing for sufficient complexity to have ongoing evolution of their own copying mechanism, I see absolutely no problem with this at all. They will rapidly evolve to become much more conventionally life-like.

I find the notion that viruses aren't alive to be totally absurd. They replicate themselves, evolve continuously into an ever-branching tree of different niches, etc.

Is your objection that they don't have their own copying machinery?

Should mistle-toe not count as alive even though it depends on a tree to live? Hell, it appears it's even missing most of the genes necessary for it's mitochondria to produce ATP[1] so if it's somehow hijacking ATP production from the host tree, it clearly has no ability to reproduce on it's own. What about a human male? They have no replication ability without a female host "machine" to make copies of themselves. Are they therefore not alive? I think your objection rapidly descends into absurdity if you closely examine your definitions.

> In a world with a different life architecture, viruses would likely just be random an uninteresting molecules.

In such a world, a virus would not exist. In the same notion, in a world without sources of sugars, starches, and proteins, you would not exist. If you happened to blink into existence in this same hypothetical as a virus, you would be an equally uninteresting collection of molecules that would rapidly disappear. [1]https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-mystery-of-mistletoes-mis...

Re: What Is Life? (2019)

#32

In the book Sapiens there was an interesting thought that life is basically information that is trying to "survive". In the same way you can look at religion as some sort of information that spreads in people minds and without people it would ceise to exist or have even reasons to exist - the same way like a virus is just information that goes from host to host. Viruses can represent the simplest form of what life is…

I meditate like harari too, vipassana multiple times a year.. i wouldnt say its exactly trying, its surviving as it moves through time as matter, to end by transforming all its information into the medium, and begin again. - Its quiet astonishing to be this. Quite lonely to see our struggles as that, there is a senselessness to it, until irs greater sentience reveals itself .. then its terrifying, and that matures into surrender, which is peace. Moving from „it is this“ to „i am this“

Re: What Is Life? (2019)

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is metabolism, so a computer program or a silicon-based intelligence cannot be considered alive by current definition. Either we rework the definition or it will definitely not be alive. Also, sentience and intelligence are two very different things, I think we are very far from having ethical problems with switching off computers (if ever).

Computers and their programs consume energy in the form of electricity to do work. How is that not metabolism? I recall seeing a reference to a biological species that also consumes electricity. In addition, they use that energy to (often) lower internal entropy and replicate themselves. They evolve with the assistance of a symbiote (humans), and are subject to competitive pressures for evolutionary fitness. Mating i…

That's exactly the difference, computers consume energy, while metabolism is the process of creation (and of course, consumption) of energy. An unplugged computer won't start to autonomously break down and convert chemicals into electricity to keep itself running, hence it's not alive.

Re: What Is Life? (2019)

#36
An unpleasant philosophical discussion* about the multiple definitions or the lack of even one proper definition for one annoying word. It has no meaning! No matter how we define life or being alive, the atoms, reality, physics, chemistry don't change. Say we decide a virus is properly alive -what does it matter? What does that decision affect?

* if it's pleasant, it's probably not a philosophical discussion

like most philosophical discussions

Re: What Is Life? (2019)

#39

> "And we may also wonder if a sentient computer program might one day be called alive of course" Why does a computer program have to be sentient to be called alive?

Yeah - are insects sentient? Do we debate whether insects are “alive”? Is OpenWorm alive?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWorm

Re: What Is Life? (2019)

#40

In the book Sapiens there was an interesting thought that life is basically information that is trying to "survive". In the same way you can look at religion as some sort of information that spreads in people minds and without people it would ceise to exist or have even reasons to exist - the same way like a virus is just information that goes from host to host. Viruses can represent the simplest form of what life is…

Yes I've long thought that the actual unit of evolution is not the gene but instead the "pattern". Genes are merely a conduit for information. Even through artificial selection, we can "select out" genes we don't want. What remains? What survives? A pattern.

I don't think we have fully grasped what information really is yet, almost like fish that have just become aware of the ocean. After finishing James Gleick's excellent The Information (mentioned recently on HN), I came away wanting more. There doesn't seem to be more because humans haven't figured it out yet.
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