What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#31

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #26

EpicEng wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear No one aside from you and other people who wear that unnecessary gear think it looks cool. Sorry. I don't imagine this is why your friends won't ride with you.

You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant. The difference is looking like you know what you're doing, and looking like you have no idea what you're doing. Regardless of the situation (biking, at work, or talking to women at bars) not knowing what you're doing and having that be publicly visible can be a huge hurdle to overcome.

>You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant.

Am I? You typed this, not me.

>They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear, while they are riding a walmart bike in baggy shorts with a dumb helmet, while visible to hundreds of people in cars.

How exactly did I misinterpret that? You think you look cool and knowledgeable and that's why no one wants to ride with you. You don't, and that's probably not why they won't ride with you.

>The difference is looking like you know what you're doing, and looking like you have no idea what you're doing.

People who spend gobs of money on all of that gear don't look like they know what they're doing; they look like middle aged men and women cosplaying people who knows what they're doing. It's unnecessary and nothing more than a fashion statement.

I think it's you who misunderstands how most of the world views your spandex. And I have no "dislike for bikers"; I dislike the snotty attitude some of them have about their dumb, pointless, overpriced gear that, uh... makes them slightly faster while riding down Main street I guess? When I play baseball with my 7 year old I don't feel the urge to throw on cleats and eye black.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#32

Post by brudgers » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #25

brnt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch person here. The thing you foreigners don't get is that cycling shouldn't be regarded as a sport. All your problems with cycling stem from that misconception.

In my opinion, Casual biking cannot exist when you have to tolerate being 12 inches from a 2 ton death machine going 45 MPH.

Beside sport and casual cycling there is practical cycling. Functional use of bicycles as transport from A to B and back where B might be work or a shop.

Though admittedly, the weather in most of the US is unsuitable much of the time and likewise the terrain. The Netherlands is a small locale where these are not factors.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#33

Post by sideshowb » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

All the things you list are accurate... Also, more 20mph speed limits on urban routes useful to cyclists. Cheap and effective for creating a more cycling friendly environment.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#34

Post by ogre_codes » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

chromaton wrote: post #28

ogre_codes wrote: post #21

I don't think a lot of people in the cycling industry are surprised this failed. While design is important, people with money want bikes that have good performance and are light weight. Bling is great, I take pride in my bike... but none of the components I have on my bike are heavier than their more bland looking counterparts. I'll accept half a pound for better suspension, but for a nice looking chain guard? Not a…

That's because they were trying to appeal to a completely different audience who doesn't see things that way. From the article, they were trying to focus on ease of use, which many current non-cyclists cited as an important factor.

Shimano has some great technologies which make bikes easier to use. The Nexus drivetrain with belt drive is fantastic for casual cycling.

This? Let me quote the directions for the most common bike maintenance issue—A flat tire.

> "The rear wheel is removed from rear-facing dropouts. Remove both left and right side covers. Remove brake arm fixing bolts and washers. Loosen axle nut. Note orientation of the non-turn washer. This washer is used to prevent the axle from rotating in the dropout.

> "Disengage the cable from the bell crank unit. Depress the adjusting rod and pull cable end from lever. Pull lever away from axle and remove adjusting rod. Use a 15mm wrench to loosen and remove axle nut.

> "Remove bell crank unit and cover fixing stay bracket. Disengage chain from chainring and pull wheel back and out of dropouts."

Compared to on a bike with a Nexus drive train:

- Release the quick release.

- Pull the tire out and disengage the chain.

This is not simpler. Traditional bikes are already fairly simple.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#35

Post by dheera » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

Yes, this. We need BIG changes in cycling infrastructure.

My old bike commute in the Bay Area involved stupid shit like this:

https://i.imgur.com/YajWMoY.png

Having to constantly switch between pushing along sidewalk and waiting ages for pedestrian lights, dealing with broken road sensors where I had to wait for a car to come behind me and "rescue" me so the light to turn green, having to go back and forth in zig zag patterns while cars got a nice direct road (not fair) -- all that made be not want to bike, especially in the heat or rain.

Seriously, get rid of ALL parking on El Camino Real. It's mind-bogglingly stupid to have parking on a major road. Turn the remaining space into a separated bike lane.

Or just mark off 1 out of the 3 lanes on El Camino Real as a wide bike lane. Our governments are just too chicken to do that.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#36

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:48 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #27

maxerickson wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one who doesn't own it thinks that low profile bike clothing is cool. Or rather, only people that own low profile bike clothing think it is cool. https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2015/11/13

My comment to a very similar reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25596163

I enjoy cycling quite a lot.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#37

Post by dashundchen » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

bowmessage wrote: post #29

dashundchen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and y…

Is doing this more damaging to knees than a standard weighted squat?

On it's own, I can't imagine so.

However I would think straining hundreds or thousands of time on a ride vs a few dozen squats for a set has a much bigger potential for injury.

I'd also add it's not uncommon to see riders with their bikes unadjusted for their size, e.g. they might be in an already weird position with their seatpost too low.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#38

Post by nradov » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #7

zachrose wrote: post #4

The core thesis behind the program is exciting. The bike industry in America exists primarily serve a relatively small group of enthusiasts, but it doesn't have to. There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). As the article suggests, I suspect it's more a problem o…

I agree. It almost seems like Shimano was trying to get all the benefits of a single speed (low maintenance, reliable, zero-though when riding), but with gears. Single speeds are amazingly cheap, simple, near-zero maintenance.. but are not good for casual riders unless your city/metro is very flat.

In my experience the reliability of single speed bikes is overstated. Several times when I rented or borrowed single speeds the chain kept dropping when I pedaled hard over rough roads. Sure that problem can be prevented through proper maintenance but in some circumstances it's sure nice to have a proper derailleur maintaining chain tension.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#39

Post by OnlyOneCannolo » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

dashundchen wrote: post #23

jablan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, although I am hobbyist bike mechanic, I never heard of Coasting before. Frankly, doesn't sound very attractive - a complicated (proprietary) automatic gear system relying on functioning (proprietary) front hub dynamo... All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.

> All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and y…

And even if people do know how to use gears, the gears are often in need of some adjustment, so people just stick to the ratios that happen to work.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#40

Post by medium_burrito » Thu, Dec 31, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

zachrose wrote: post #30

medium_burrito wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of problems for biking in the US, but first among them is we don't have separate bike paths. All the other problems like showers at work, rampant bike theft even from secure storage behind multiple keyed doors at fancy tech companies, excessive spandex are secondary. Cycling as an activity has gone way upmarket in the last 30 years, as there aren't many new people in the sport and the main demograp…

Yes, very much so, but the problems are self-fulfilling: no infrastructure because not enough riders, not enough riders because bikes are unstylish and expensive, etc. But this also means that improving anything is a step towards improving everything.

There were tons of younger riders both in the 90s and 2000s- one wave from mountain biking (when Americans were good at it, so there was enthusiasm) and fixies, which were cheap and cool and durable.

Fixies especially seemed like they would usher in more urban cycling (especially with people switching to singlespeed, but keeping the cool look), and messenger culture was a thing. There was no specialized equipment, except for perhaps tight jeans and moustache (optional for women).

However, no matter go interested people are, eventually reality hits you like a truck, or car door as the case may be, and your third bike gets stolen, and you get sick of it.

People would definitely use the infrastructure- there's no shortage of people who like to rides bikes, but are sick of dealing with crazy drivers and potholes and car doors and fedex/prime trucks parked wherever in the middle of the road.