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Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

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31–40 of 94 posts

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#31

Many people are presented with 2 alternatives: Alternative A) You are an ordinary person with an ordinary job and ordinary pasttimes. You fulfill your role in society like everyone else. Alternative B) You have an important mission that will change the course of history, to spread the influence of . If you are bored, tired of living a repetitive life and have no purpose in life, Alternative B) sounds fantastic. Now y…

> Conspiracy theories, religious fanatism, extreme nationalism, flat earth societies, sanitary anticompliance (anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers), climate change denial... they all have a thing in common: they are not rational and the people behind them are afraid of rationality and science.

Actually, I'd disagree. If you dig in to a lot of these theories, there is a kernel of rationality behind them. Many adherents can actually rebut arguments with evidence that makes a surprising amount of sense: there are usually multiple possible explanations for individual phenomena, and if you look at them in isolation, it can be very hard to conclusively demonstrate that the "scientific" answer is actually the best possible explanation. This to me explains why even intellectuals can fall prey to these theories: if you already have a nonconformist streak, the alternative explanations can be interesting to dig into.

Where they fall flat is in overall coherence; these theories often end up with massive gaping seams if you try to expand them from explaining one phenomena. And these seams are so obvious, and yet adherents have no coherent explanation for these seams, that it overshadows whatever kernel of rationality the theory originally had.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#32

Am I the only one who thinks that this is largely the fault of the social media giants?

Before social media, AM talk radio was the same cesspool, with the same content and a similarly sized audience. Facebook just makes it more visible to those that are rightfully disturbed by it.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#33
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that those two concepts would be even functionally related is a massive struggle for me. Like what? “Nonsense conspiracy theory makes sense because ‘NPR has an agenda’”. Like genuinely, huh? If you don’t believe NPR, you don’t have to pick the stupidest possible alternative.

Yeah seriously. What a weird false equivalence to try to suggest.

> Yeah seriously. What a weird false equivalence to try to suggest.

Honestly, it's probably part of a real justification narrative for trusting things like QAnon and talk radio over the mainstream media. If you do that, you at least have to put them on the same level, and if it's too difficult to build up things like the first two, then you can always try tear down the latter (since it's easier to cherry-pick enough stuff to make that passably believable: just set a very high bar then catalog the inevitable times one of the thousands of journalists didn't live up to it over the last century).

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#34
post #16

Only 72% of Americans trust that their country landed on the Moon in 1969. The Republican Party ought to take a long, hard look at where their campaign against facts is leading them. It’s not even the party of Nixon anymore.

Are you implying only one party engages in this?

I could list many conspiracies peddled by the other party but I would be flagged/banned for most. Some less controversial ones might be Trump being elected due to mysterious Russians, and Trump being a secret White Supremacist hiding dog whistles in every other tweet.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#36

Am I the only one who thinks that this is largely the fault of the social media giants?

In the current incarnation, sure. But the real "problem" is the internet where people with niche ideas can find like-minded people and let their ideas and followers grow from there. Sometimes the results are benign. Sometimes they aren't.

People could always find like minded people and communicate, it might have been less efficient but conspiracy groups have always magazines in news stands, published books in stores and libraries, international newsletters, less formal letter based communication and conventions. You were probably less likely to come across them because it took a little more effort and you were in a "mainstream bubble" (I don't mean that negatively) but they were always there.

Saying it didn't exists before the internet is like saying dating didn't exists before it was online.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#37
post #16

Only 72% of Americans trust that their country landed on the Moon in 1969. The Republican Party ought to take a long, hard look at where their campaign against facts is leading them. It’s not even the party of Nixon anymore.

Are you implying only one party engages in this? I could list many conspiracies peddled by the other party but I would be flagged/banned for most. Some less controversial ones might be Trump being elected due to mysterious Russians, and Trump being a secret White Supremacist hiding dog whistles in every other tweet.

"Trump being elected due to mysterious Russians"

The FBI and Mueller special counsel report specifically called out an anti-Clinton campaign by the GRU. No one argues that Trump was elected by Russians, only that they did an awful lot to air Clinton's dirty laundry.

Seems a tad different than 'Hillary Clinton runs a child sex ring in a pizza parlor basement'.

But maybe that's just my liberal bias speaking.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#38
post #16

Only 72% of Americans trust that their country landed on the Moon in 1969. The Republican Party ought to take a long, hard look at where their campaign against facts is leading them. It’s not even the party of Nixon anymore.

Are you implying only one party engages in this? I could list many conspiracies peddled by the other party but I would be flagged/banned for most. Some less controversial ones might be Trump being elected due to mysterious Russians, and Trump being a secret White Supremacist hiding dog whistles in every other tweet.

I don’t remember Hillary Clinton calling Trump’s election fake in Nov 2016 (she conceded the morning after Election Day). There were no calls from Obama asking state legislators to overturn the results, or for VP Biden to just ignore state results and pick electors himself in Jan 2017 (which is what many Republicans are asking Pence to do next week).

Later there was an investigation into Russian election interference authorized by Trump’s own Attorney General. Five people went to prison. That’s not a conspiracy theory.

Speculation about Trump’s motives was fueled by his own extremely bizarre behavior towards Russia. In the infamous Helsinki meeting, he first destroyed interpreter’s notes to hide what was discussed, then took Putin’s side against the American intelligence community. My own feeling is that he did all this simply out of a weird admiration for Putin — but with this much smoke, it’s not surprising there were questions about a fire.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#39

This is a direct result of the degradation of journalism. When you notice that mass media has a political agenda, you stop trusting them. You look for information somewhere else. If you are not very educated and don't have time to do serious research, you fall for conspiracy theories, since they are the complete opposite of mass media.

> This is a direct result of the degradation of journalism. And, you know, a political ideology that believes the media lies about everything. The current President of the United States himself says it constantly.

Yes, Trump says things that are misleading or blatantly untrue. However I don't think mistrust in the MSM is "ideology" associated with one party. Fox News is the MSM for many people and they've given us many reasons to distrust them.

Just off the top of my head:

* WaPo and NYT lied about WMDs and Iraq.

* NYT lied about NSA spying programs in 2005. Snowden explicitly said he gave his leaks to a British organization because US news could not be trusted.

* Rolling Stone misrepresented or omitted testimonies in 'A Rape on Campus'.

* CNN said repeatedly that Clinton was polling higher than Trump and there was absolutely no way he was going to win. CNN also blacked out Yang and Sanders coverage and got flak for it. CNN also retracted at least one story on Trump, i cant remember what it was about but probably Russia.

* HuffPo has retracted a racist article after it was revealed the author had faked their identity, and editors made no attempt to verify whether or not their credentials were real.

* And of course everyone is familiar with the evils of 'new media' companies like Facebook and YouTube, from spreading harmful content to children, unfairly enforcing policies, spreading misinformation, and harmful ads.

I'm sure I could come up with more. Why should I trust them? What have these organizations done to prove to the public they are changing? Why does distrusting them make me some sort of alt-right crazy? It seems like the media has the burden of proof, not me. From where I stand, the "political ideology" is a reaction to a sleazy, corrupt, and dying media industry.

Re: Even If It's 'Bonkers,' Poll Finds Many Believe QAnon, Other Conspiracy Theories

#40

Am I the only one who thinks that this is largely the fault of the social media giants?

Yeah, this feels like the outcome of echo chambers. The whole idea of "repeating a lie often enough makes it true" is happening constantly on a personalized micro scale. In the past you had one nutter yelling on the street corner about the pedophiles in the pizza shops, and everyone kinda walked on by, thinking man, that guy's nutters. Now he's in your house, 6 hours a day. And eventually, you're like, man, those piz…

I just finished 'When Prophecy Fails' It's a study about what people do when they are presented with info that disproves their crazy ideas. It turns out, that when the end of the world doesn't come, if you're by yourself, and don't have any other true believers around to help you explain away the miss, then you usually become disillusioned and move away from whatever movement you're in.

On the other hand, when true believers are around, the feedback loop helps soften the blow and find an excuse. It blocks out the doubt and you continue in your beliefs.

The really shitty thing here is that with the internet, you never have to go through the disappointment of an obvious failed prophecy alone, you can reach out to 4 chan and explain away and justify and find support and reassurance that you weren't actually wrong, when the evidence right in front of your face is clearly saying you were wrong. This is contributing to a snowball effect where these movements are just connecting and growing and never suffer setbacks when the are obviously wrong. (i.e. pizza gate guy shooting into the closet.)

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