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Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LatinX. As a native Spanish speaker I never understood the X and now I get it. Anyways is incorrect according to the Real Academy of the Spanish Language

It’s ridiculous. It’s completely unnatural and can’t be worked into the language in a day to day way. They should have chosen another vowel like the short ‘e’, latiné.

Truly astounding when the rallying cry to "end white supremacy" and "give representation to underprivileged/underrepresented groups" involves light-skinned Anglophone people dictating to darker-skinned Spanish-speaking people how the Spanish language should work, and in a way that betrays total ignorance of actually communicating in Spanish.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience teams with little work have time to do this "activism"

man, this is her own team, this isn't some abstract very removed issue , this people she worked with advocating for her.

Yeah but her own team will probably be the most likely to advocate for her.

Go to any university in the US right after a prof is denied tenure. His students will inevitably protest this decision the loudest.

Also, what were they supposed to do after she sent an email to a huge listserv at the company telling all her subordinates that they should not participate in the company's D&I initiatives and should essentially quit working there? You can't pay people to tell your own employees to stop working for you...

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#34
post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Was it public before she got fired?

[deleted]

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#35

Why is "black" being spelled with a capital "B"?

why is it even being mentioned? i miss hacker culture from the early internet, where it didnt matter your age, your sexuality, your "race"; we're all human beings :/

here's a conjecture: maybe racism is not real, maybe it's something that seems real but isn't, like "evil". it just seems so easy to find counterexamples to racist ideas. hate black people? surely i can introduce you to one who is pretty cool. hate whites? they aren't all bad. like seriously, how does it continue to exist? is it just an excuse? how can you look at a whole population and just hate em? is it something like an emotion? and if so, how do we solve it? it can't be corrected with education if it's a feeling. people can't help their feelings. drugs?

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#37
> accepted her resignation immediately

In saying "resignation", CNN is presenting the management framing -- as many people have pointed out, she was fired.

Bloomberg states both sides of that: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/google-ai...

As does The Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/7/22158501/timnit-gebru-tea...

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#38

Why is "black" being spelled with a capital "B"?

why is it even being mentioned? i miss hacker culture from the early internet, where it didnt matter your age, your sexuality, your "race"; we're all human beings :/ here's a conjecture: maybe racism is not real, maybe it's something that seems real but isn't, like "evil". it just seems so easy to find counterexamples to racist ideas. hate black people? surely i can introduce you to one who is pretty cool. hate white…

> here's a conjecture: maybe racism is not real, maybe it's something that seems real but isn't, like "evil".

In South Africa they teach young schoolchildren about the country's apartheid history (and knowing this history is a good thing, because it provides context for the country's modern day inequality).

Sadly there are some older generations who have oppposing (and often contradictory) views of exactly how and why said history played out the way it did.

This disagreement of history often leads to modern day racism.

Sadly it's here to stay - at least for a while still - but I do hope that one day it becomes a thing the past.

EDIT: I see you removed your opening line. Leaving it here for context to my comment.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#39

Why is "black" being spelled with a capital "B"?

It's an editorial style that some publications (including CNN) are adopting in service of racial sensitivity. CNN has mandated that all staff must capitalize both "Black" and "White" [1]: > Both words denote a racial or ethnic identity and therefore should be upper case when referring to a person, community, culture, etc., in the same way CNN capitalizes other descriptors of race, ethnicity and shared identity, inclu…

At least CNN is being consistent. NY Times is capitalizing Black but not White, and they seem to be using tortured logic in my opinion to explain the discrepancy: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/05/insider/capitalized-black...

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#40
post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

Because the academic standard for research, and the original motivation for tenure, allows for researchers to criticize anyone, including their own institution, as long as it's done and presented as the proper product of research. In other words, if a researcher is doing their research properly, it shouldn't matter if they're attacking their own institution or even colleagues, because it passes scientific muster and the quality of the research is what justifies it.

When companies like Google or IBM employee researchers, they're positioning themselves as supporting that model of inquiry, and the benefit for them is the credibility that comes from participation in scientific inquiry. Gebru attacking Google's AI practices actually lends Google credibility for disinterestedly supporting basic research and taking its results seriously.

A company that employs an ethicist and takes that ethicist's output seriously even when it challenges the company is a company that genuinely cares about the academic standard in that field. A company that hires an ethicist and then fires them when they point out the company's wrongdoing is sounding an alarm about their own unethical conduct.

The part I struggle to understand here is how Google could be so stupid. Who cares, from a commercial perspective, if an academic they employ drags them? Keeping Gebru on payroll was straightforwardly purchased ethical credibility; firing her is a PR disaster and an open statement that their ethics AI group is a propaganda unit rather than a genuine research entity. It would have been trivial, even beneficial, to air the academic dispute. They gained nothing by retracting her paper and then firing her.

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