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Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

erischel.com

31–40 of 41 posts

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#31
post #3

This is speaking of entropy and states of gasses. Isn't there some generalization of entropy, such that even when sentient life-forms tried their damnedest, or even in black-holes, entropy must always trend up? Or was that a mischaracterization?

Ask three thermodynamics engineers, get five answers. The generalization you're referring to is pretty accurate, but according to some interpretations it's just assumed to exist a priori and then we look for evidence of it. But while it's unclear whether entropy is the result of some universal law or a hack we use to make the math work out, it definitely does make the math work out in closed systems of gasses.

entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works.

People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental.

No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense.

   Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered states that's why any random configuration of gas particles in a system is more likely to be disordered.

   Also when you try to purturb the state of random particles from state1 to state2, by probability state2 will be disordered because there are far more possible disordered states than ordered states... even when the initial state is ordered. Hence entropy increases. 
The philosophical thing people should be examining is the nature of probability and reality which we already know is intrinsically tied with the nature of fundamental particles.

Probability is an axiom, entropy is a theorem derived from the axiom of probability, the fact that it is called a "law" seems like it's fundamental but it's not, entropy can be derived assuming probability is true.

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#32
post #16

There's something about attempts at entropy that feels entirely inadequate. The definition of "law" in science isn't something that's true, just something that we haven't observed any exceptions to (yet). However entropy, is in larger systems entirely unmeasurable as far as I understand (is there even a unit for it?). Rather than tackle-these scientific shortcomings head-on, most tend to gloss over it. Perhaps a good…

I've tackled this problem. Basically most people, even smart people don't understand entropy correctly.

Entropy is not a law. It is a derivation. You can derive entropy mathematically from other axioms we assume are true in reality.

Let me state it plainly in a sentence that is not entirely correct but will help elucidate the meaning of entropy:

Systems tend toward disorder because there are more possible disordered configurations then there are ordered configurations.

This is entropy (sort of).

If your system is a bunch of 6 sided dice one ordered configuration is rolling a 1 on all the dice. Another ordered configuration is rolling a 5 on all the dice. A more likely but ordered configuration is rolling either a 1 or a 2.

There are numerous ordered configurations of a system but the number of unordered outcomes is by far greater then ordered outcomes. If you have a system of dice all facing up with 1s the system is in a low entropy ordered state. If you shake all the dice, it is more likely for the dice to come out in a random state all with random numbers. Shaking the dice is increasing entropy. Entropy increases. But you see here because you relate the dice to probability it's easy to see how by probability the dice should trend toward more disordered states.

The same phenomena goes for particles in a box. Instead of the numbers on the side of the dice replace it with the position of each particle. Shaking the dice is exactly isomorphic to particles traveling in random directions. By probability, dice will roll random disordered numbers just like how by probability randomly moving particles will move into randomly disordered positions.

The same probabilistic intuition that you have for why throwing a bunch of bricks at the ground won't be accident construct a house is exactly the intuition behind probability AND as a result entropy.

The real phenomena here is probability. Why does it apply to reality? We don't know. But entropy is just a consequence of it. Entropy is simply saying (again sort of) systems tend toward more disordered states because disordered states are more numerous and therefore more probable.

The axiom or "law" as you call it is probability and entropy is a theorem or derivation that is a consequence of probability.

This is just a really simple explanation of entropy. Entropy is actually more general then this. It applies even to systems where "ordered" states outnumber "unordered" states. You can see my other explanations in this thread I get into it deeply.

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#33
post #16

There's something about attempts at entropy that feels entirely inadequate. The definition of "law" in science isn't something that's true, just something that we haven't observed any exceptions to (yet). However entropy, is in larger systems entirely unmeasurable as far as I understand (is there even a unit for it?). Rather than tackle-these scientific shortcomings head-on, most tend to gloss over it. Perhaps a good…

In classical thermo, entropy has units of J/K. It's the gradient of the Helmholtz free energy w.r.t. temperature (at fixed volume). I think experimentally one generally measures the heat capacity as a function of temperature, from which you can obtain the entropy.

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask three thermodynamics engineers, get five answers. The generalization you're referring to is pretty accurate, but according to some interpretations it's just assumed to exist a priori and then we look for evidence of it. But while it's unclear whether entropy is the result of some universal law or a hack we use to make the math work out, it definitely does make the math work out in closed systems of gasses.

entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works. People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental. No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense. Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered…

this seems like a good angle with which to approach the question. To my way of conceptualising, Entropy is something like the inverse of data. What makes one state less ordered than another? The more ordered state requires less data to be fully described.

In that sense there is an underlying reality to entropy, but it's impossible to be sure, an ordered state could seem disordered if we lack the data that would describe it. I think we understand entropy to the same degree we understand data, and as data science develops I hope we'll develop a better understanding of entropy as a consequence.

Heat makes for a good proxy though.

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#35
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entropy is a measure of the uncertainty that an observer has over the microstates (i.e. the exact state of every atom) given their knowledge of the macrostate (i.e. what they are capable of describing: like "the water is just above freezing"). So it's inherently a subjective concept. The most common unit for entropy is the bit, same unit as information. Anyway, entropy is measurable just like any other physical quant…

>> Anyway, entropy is measurable just like any other physical quantity Uh, I measure the mass of a baseball by putting it on a scale, and I get an objective number in kilograms. Similar for velocity, temperature, and volume. So far as I know, entropy is pretty unique in that there isn't, and will never be an instrument that gives the number of bits in a baseball. >> So it's inherently a subjective concept. Yes, this…

Yeah, it is different, but once you know what you're after you can measure. It's a "type error" to ask for the number of bits of entropy in a baseball, but if you ask for the bits of entropy of a baseball given everything you know about the baseball (i.e. mass, composition, temperature), then you can measure it. You could even design a special instrument which makes relevant measurements of observable quantities and then calculates the entropy of a given object from those.

Temperature is actually defined from entropy, it's the change in energy per change in entropy. So it too is inherently subjective. One way to think about this is that to a simulator or god outside of our universe, who can precisely see everything happening in the universe, the temperature and entropy of everything is exactly zero (of course, they would be able to predict what we would measure it as). To them, they would see the level of a thermometer as simply a mechanical consequence of all the particles nudging it to that exact place (like you would if you saw someone pump the mercury up the tube -- you wouldn't conclude it must have gotten much hotter suddenly).

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#36
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entropy is a measure of the uncertainty that an observer has over the microstates (i.e. the exact state of every atom) given their knowledge of the macrostate (i.e. what they are capable of describing: like "the water is just above freezing"). So it's inherently a subjective concept. The most common unit for entropy is the bit, same unit as information. Anyway, entropy is measurable just like any other physical quant…

Could you recommend more like that?

Everything on that website is good like that, but unfortunately I wish I had more like it to recommend.

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entropy is a measure of the uncertainty that an observer has over the microstates (i.e. the exact state of every atom) given their knowledge of the macrostate (i.e. what they are capable of describing: like "the water is just above freezing"). So it's inherently a subjective concept. The most common unit for entropy is the bit, same unit as information. Anyway, entropy is measurable just like any other physical quant…

>> Anyway, entropy is measurable just like any other physical quantity Uh, I measure the mass of a baseball by putting it on a scale, and I get an objective number in kilograms. Similar for velocity, temperature, and volume. So far as I know, entropy is pretty unique in that there isn't, and will never be an instrument that gives the number of bits in a baseball. >> So it's inherently a subjective concept. Yes, this…

> So far as I know, entropy is pretty unique in that there isn't, and will never be an instrument that gives the number of bits in a baseball.

Nonsense. Black Hole entropy is measurable in exactly the same way - put it on a scale, get mass in kilograms, from mass compute radius and area - voila, you've got an entropy

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works. People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental. No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense. Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered…

this seems like a good angle with which to approach the question. To my way of conceptualising, Entropy is something like the inverse of data. What makes one state less ordered than another? The more ordered state requires less data to be fully described. In that sense there is an underlying reality to entropy, but it's impossible to be sure, an ordered state could seem disordered if we lack the data that would descr…

Your intuition gets you to the right place but I think it is a bit flawed.

Entropy must be described relative to a system and an arbitrary definition of macrostates and microstates. It actually has nothing to do with disorder or order, I used the term previously because it helps with intuition but it is actually categorically wrong.

For example for a system of 5 loaded dice that roll six 99% of the time. With a microstate defined as the value of each dice after a roll and a macrostate defined as the number of 6s.

With this system entropy goes up as you roll more sixes. Order also goes up with entropy. Entropy is an arbitrary concept that is defined relative to your choice of a "system", "macrostates" and "microstates." You can choose systems that have higher probabilities of being ordered like say magnetic cubes in a box versus regular cubes. The magnetic cubes are more likely to be stacked perfectly and that is defined as a higher entropic state even when there is "less" information needed to "describe" it.

I never read about information theory but I'm assuming that the choice of "system" in information theory is usually pretty simple as in you can have numbers like the dice, but you usually don't work with "loaded" dice. So under the case where the microstate of each entity has equal probability of occuring. In this case there is a direct relationship between whether data describing something can be compressed and the entropy of of that something. The higher the entropy the less it can be compressed.

Information places idealistic restrictions on microstates... However this is not the case in nature. If the microstate of our universe of atoms is defined as the cartesian coordinates of each atom. Then atoms have a tendency to coalesce into spheres (planets, starts, black holes) due to gravity and as a result each microstate does not have equal probability of occuring.

Planets are in fact a higher entropic state then the cloud of dust that the planet initially started out as. I can now describe all those atoms with in compressed form (a macrostate): "Planet." Thereby leading to an opposite relationship between compressibility and entropy. In this case the higher the entropy of a system the less information is needed to describe it.

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems like a good angle with which to approach the question. To my way of conceptualising, Entropy is something like the inverse of data. What makes one state less ordered than another? The more ordered state requires less data to be fully described. In that sense there is an underlying reality to entropy, but it's impossible to be sure, an ordered state could seem disordered if we lack the data that would descr…

Your intuition gets you to the right place but I think it is a bit flawed. Entropy must be described relative to a system and an arbitrary definition of macrostates and microstates. It actually has nothing to do with disorder or order, I used the term previously because it helps with intuition but it is actually categorically wrong. For example for a system of 5 loaded dice that roll six 99% of the time. With a micro…

Interesting. So when you say that entropy is an arbitrary concept, is it simply determined by the likeliest macrostates? So in the case of planets vs dust clouds, would we say that planets have higher entropy than dust clouds because entropy is defined as increasing with the likeliest states and we know that planets are likelier?

To put it another way, could someone us their understanding of entropy to make predictions about a system's probability distribution beyond what they already know of it? Or is the entropy of a state purely defined by its proximity to a basin of attraction?

I'm reminded of a debate in physics when the time light takes to travel between fixed points changes - a minority prefers to change the definition of C in m/s, while most prefer to change the value of m in the portion of the universe we're in at the time. To ask the same question in yet another way, Is Entropy like C to the majority? If it appears to decrease, it's our understanding of probabilities for the system that need to be reworked?

Re: Demystifying the second law of thermodynamics

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intuition gets you to the right place but I think it is a bit flawed. Entropy must be described relative to a system and an arbitrary definition of macrostates and microstates. It actually has nothing to do with disorder or order, I used the term previously because it helps with intuition but it is actually categorically wrong. For example for a system of 5 loaded dice that roll six 99% of the time. With a micro…

Interesting. So when you say that entropy is an arbitrary concept, is it simply determined by the likeliest macrostates? So in the case of planets vs dust clouds, would we say that planets have higher entropy than dust clouds because entropy is defined as increasing with the likeliest states and we know that planets are likelier? To put it another way, could someone us their understanding of entropy to make predictio…

>To ask the same question in yet another way, Is Entropy like C to the majority? If it appears to decrease, it's our understanding of probabilities for the system that need to be reworked?

The popular intuition of entropy is often wrong and incomplete. The most general definition is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)

You will see it is inline with what I'm talking about. Entropy is an arbitrary concept defined relative to your choice of a system (entities axioms and theorems) and arbitrary macrostates and arbitary microstates defined for the system.

Nobody has this down, they all talk about entropy without defining what kind of entropy they're talking about. Usually it's a half baked definition involving temperature and conservation of energy.

In general when you add conservation of energy into your system, microstates and macrostates then it becomes more inline with the popular notion of entropy. Because for atoms to self organize into planets they must stop moving, but because of conservation of energy that motion must be transferred into something else. So in general self organization in one part of the universe must mean another part of the universe gets hotter.

If I define a macrostate and microstate to account for conservation of energy meaning that my microstate must make sure that if a particle stops moving another one must start moving then things usually fits the notion of getting more disordered over time.

If I define the microstate to be just the position of atoms then things appear to become ordered over time as the position of atoms coalesce into spheres.

So there's different perspectives on it and all perspectives are true. It's just one perspective is examining the phenomenon of conservation of energy the other is not.

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