Live data from Hacker News

You Are the Product (2017)

lrb.co.uk

31–40 of 82 posts

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix also accumulates all of your watching habits and feeds it into AI while using their services.

Is that a bad thing if it helps you to find great new content?

Except most of what you "discover" is actually more of the same. That why we have so much divisiveness in our society, people are unknowingly in echo chambers so deep they don't know anything else exists.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#32
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix also accumulates all of your watching habits and feeds it into AI while using their services.

Is that a bad thing if it helps you to find great new content?

It's just not a great argument against YouTube since "accumulates everything I do into their DB and AI" is something both services do in the name of better recommendations.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#33
post #28

There is a big sentiment in the comments that ads are per se a bad thing. I want to make a counter argument: ads drive innovation because they make expensive services possible for the masses. I have watched endless YouTube videos and learned a great many things. I haven’t paid a dime for it yet. Newspaper adoption in mass was achieved by the same mechanism. Ads drove the price for newspaper significantly down so the…

Ads are not evil per se, overdoing them is.

Do you think youtube algorithms optimize for you learning and becoming a better human or to maximize ad revenue? Based on the answer the knowledge you gained is on average either deep and meaningful or shallow, bordering entertainment value.

That is not to say you can’t find deep structured knowledge on youtube, but the proper way to support its creation is to directly pay for it. Next best thing is paying for youtube premium.

Imagine two youtubes, one ran by ads only and one exclusively for paid subscribers. Which one of these is more likely to have funny cat videos and which one deep, meaningful knowledge and why? In which case the interest of the platform is aligned with the interest of the user?

When overdone, ad business models incentivize mass creation of low quality entertainment which is what most of internet including news has become. In no way ads help democratize the access to valuable information.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#34
post #5

It's tiring having a finger waved at you for blocking advertisements. When we all know that our data of who we are and our actions is just as valuable as the ads we are forced to watch. The Internet has become an ad machine that throws a tantrum if anyone dares to block advertising or tracking (of yourself). YouTube was meant for sharing videos but now "influencers", many channel owners, and YouTube itself balk at an…

You can pay for YouTube premium and get rid of ads. If you spend a non trivial amount of time on YouTube it's well worth it, especially the family account. Don't want to be the product ? Pay for your services then - the money has to come from somewhere.

I think part of the tension is that advertising (and other data harvesting) attempts to monetize content that has virtually zero value for a lot of people: take any of the articles on a typical HN front page - right now the top two are "Booting from a vinyl record" and "Exotic programming ideas". These sound interesting (and are already somewhat well targeted to me as a HN reader), but the content is still worth almost nothing to me if I have to sign up for something or watch an ad to view it. Now apply the same reasoning to most web content that I value even less, like random medium articles or Forbes techcrunch or something that are pretty much designed just to get people to click on them. Most internet content that we are considering here is just there to get you to look at ads, and so ironically not worth "paying" for in any way for most people.

So ad blocking puts the user in a funny position. It let's them continue to look at things they don't value much. And I think content creaters looking for views probably would rather complain about ad blockers than give users an ultimatum that could result in them just going somewhere else.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can pay for YouTube premium and get rid of ads. If you spend a non trivial amount of time on YouTube it's well worth it, especially the family account. Don't want to be the product ? Pay for your services then - the money has to come from somewhere.

Oh, but I'm OK with paying. I paid for netflix, lastpass and zoom. I still pay for dynalist, audible or for having my own email address. However, I'm not OK with having a logged in google account that accumulates everything I do into their DB and AI while I use their services. Even when you pay, they still milk your private life. And they have proved time after time they cannot be trusted with it.

You can disable the the tracking on your account if you want with or without Youtube premium.

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6139018?co=GENIE....

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#38
post #28

There is a big sentiment in the comments that ads are per se a bad thing. I want to make a counter argument: ads drive innovation because they make expensive services possible for the masses. I have watched endless YouTube videos and learned a great many things. I haven’t paid a dime for it yet. Newspaper adoption in mass was achieved by the same mechanism. Ads drove the price for newspaper significantly down so the…

Ads are not evil per se, overdoing them is. Do you think youtube algorithms optimize for you learning and becoming a better human or to maximize ad revenue? Based on the answer the knowledge you gained is on average either deep and meaningful or shallow, bordering entertainment value. That is not to say you can’t find deep structured knowledge on youtube, but the proper way to support its creation is to directly pay…

What is the root cause of those incentives? Is it the platform, or the predominate audience on the platform?

I’d argue the only reason subscription based platforms have a higher probability of offering quality is that the pay barrier creates a more filtered user base that prefers quality.

If a platform dependent on ad revenue had some other barrier to entry, like content only accessible to an audience that preferred that type of high quality content to low quality content, I don’t see ads having a negative effect.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but I'm OK with paying. I paid for netflix, lastpass and zoom. I still pay for dynalist, audible or for having my own email address. However, I'm not OK with having a logged in google account that accumulates everything I do into their DB and AI while I use their services. Even when you pay, they still milk your private life. And they have proved time after time they cannot be trusted with it.

You can disable the the tracking on your account if you want with or without Youtube premium. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6139018?co=GENIE....

I'm not going to trust google with that after a decade of terrible track record.

I don't believe one second there is a way to opt out of Google tracking you. At best, you can lower the settings on how much it displays the informations it has on you.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but I'm OK with paying. I paid for netflix, lastpass and zoom. I still pay for dynalist, audible or for having my own email address. However, I'm not OK with having a logged in google account that accumulates everything I do into their DB and AI while I use their services. Even when you pay, they still milk your private life. And they have proved time after time they cannot be trusted with it.

Netflix also accumulates all of your watching habits and feeds it into AI while using their services.

Netflix doesn't have an ubiquitous search engine, analytic scripts on half the web sites in the world, Android, gmail, maps, youtube, and so on.

Netflix business is not to accumulate data on you and resell it, or to display ads.

Netflix was not part of the PRISM program.

Netflix is not Google.

Post reply on HN