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Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

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Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#31

Post by raxxorrax »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #27
john_moscow wrote: post #6

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small a…

Don't romanticize what, living near your immediate family? Why? It's how literally every civilization has done things so far. This modern American ideal of forced to be on your own at 18 to find yourself has only been around for 70 years at most, and while we've achieved unthinkable progress in that time as a society, it's wrecked havoc over the family unit.

I left home when I started university and never went back. It was awesome to have the freedom and I think most young people cherish that moment.

I love my family and after my father died my mother and I were forced to live with my grandparents. It wasn't terrible, but there are generational conflicts that you have to consider. That can get exhausting and my mother was relieved when we got our own apartment even if she loves her parents. We are still near each other and there is no drama in my family. But I don't think anyone of us would like to share a house again.

I don't like the popular cry for abolition of the nuclear family in favor of some comittment-less commune. But the other model to live within a family clan isn't attractive either. And you can still handle it as you like, because nobody is forcing you in either direction.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#32

Post by buran77 »

ponker wrote: post #16
kimjongtrill wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is 100% different from parent comment’s situation though...

Right, but my point is that “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. Not a rebuttal, a different anecdote.

> “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space.

> My parents live about a mile away.

Living with parents is indeed great especially when you're not actually living with them. You live alone. In-laws in another house, parents a mile away.

Living with family means sharing the actual facilities of the house not just technically being on the same property, or in a house where you never have to cross paths. Having parents in another house on the same property doesn't mean "living together" more than a neighbor on the other side of a 30cm wall is living with you.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#33

Post by nojokes »

golergka wrote: post #28
john_moscow wrote: post #6

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small a…

> I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be…

In some places where spacious apartments that were the norm 10 years have now new trend where the same bed room size apartment has gotten about 1.5 times smaller. Just the cost of the square meter is so high that even fairly high earning people could not comfortably afford them anymore.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#34

Post by macspoofing »

ponker wrote: post #16
kimjongtrill wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is 100% different from parent comment’s situation though...

Right, but my point is that “Living with parents” is a wildly different experience if you have enough space. Not a rebuttal, a different anecdote.

... but you're not living with parents.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#35

Post by golergka »

nojokes wrote: post #33
golergka wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small apartment, and I can tell you, it gets on your nerves when the grandparents want to watch TV at maximum volume, while the parent is trying to catch some sleep debt and the kid (me) is doing homework in the same room. That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be…

In some places where spacious apartments that were the norm 10 years have now new trend where the same bed room size apartment has gotten about 1.5 times smaller. Just the cost of the square meter is so high that even fairly high earning people could not comfortably afford them anymore.

I have sympathy for people who are gradually priced out of basic necessities in life, but living in a center of one of the world's busiest and most expensive cities isn't a necessity. If a person is insisting on making that choice instead of moving out, especially in a world that is moving more and more into remote work, well, it's their responsibility.

Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#36

Post by buran77 »

Dirlewanger wrote: post #27
john_moscow wrote: post #6

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small a…

Don't romanticize what, living near your immediate family? Why? It's how literally every civilization has done things so far. This modern American ideal of forced to be on your own at 18 to find yourself has only been around for 70 years at most, and while we've achieved unthinkable progress in that time as a society, it's wrecked havoc over the family unit.

> every civilization has done things so far.

For lack of better conditions. You are arbitrarily picking this as an example of being right because it was done this way in the past. We changed so much for the better despite those things being done like that for generations.

If you want a more technical analogy, this isn't about having a dedicated connection but about proper QoS. You can live in a mansion with family because you're still unencumbered. But reality is that for most living with their family is like having 3 Netflix streams on the same 128K line. And the fact that this is how every civilization has done things so far doesn't make it less of a pain. Makes it a traditional pain though.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#37

Post by macspoofing »

PartiallyTyped wrote: post #29

I come from South Eastern Europe and lived quite a bit with my grandparents, my parents are split though. The experience wasn't really good. Older people tend to have a very fixed and opinionated idea of what is good or 'correct' that does not match the reality. I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. Guess who studied CompSci? S…

>I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'.

To be fair to your grandparents, large amount of screen time is not good for children and teenagers. And let's face it, if you were like a typical teenager, your screen time was largely devoted to gaming or other non-academic endeavors. I suspect when you have children of your own, you'll start sounding like your grandparents. I found that after your 20s you start appreciating the advice and experience of older people and the wisdom behind it.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#38

Post by thereisnospork »

golergka wrote: post #35
nojokes wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places where spacious apartments that were the norm 10 years have now new trend where the same bed room size apartment has gotten about 1.5 times smaller. Just the cost of the square meter is so high that even fairly high earning people could not comfortably afford them anymore.

I have sympathy for people who are gradually priced out of basic necessities in life, but living in a center of one of the world's busiest and most expensive cities isn't a necessity. If a person is insisting on making that choice instead of moving out, especially in a world that is moving more and more into remote work, well, it's their responsibility. Comparing this situation with a system without private property…

>Comparing this situation with a system without private property or even ability to rent, where apartments are leased by the state through your employer and you have no choice in the matter and have to wait years in order to move is a really, really long stretch.

Why is the soft touch approach of government making housing unaffordable any different, morally?

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#39

Post by csomar »

john_moscow wrote: post #6

Keeping connection with the older generations and learning from them is important. But I don't think, nuclear families are about denying that. It's more about having enough space and freedom to see each other when you want it, but keeping off each other's backs and not letting the differences between the generations ruin your relations. I've grown up in a typical 3-generational Russian family sharing a rather small a…

> That was one of the main reasons why I decided to move to the West where having enough private space was considered to be a basic and unquestionable necessity.

I thought the reason these societies lived together was lack of financial means. It's not very different from where I currently live, but anybody that has enough funds to go on his own does indeed do it. It's not, in my opinion, about culture but rather it's almost impossible for a 30-year old in these countries to strike it on their own. Pay too low, and living is too expensive. They have to make it work together.

Re: Not Just Nuclear: Families are elders long buried and generations yet unborn

#40

Post by csomar »

macspoofing wrote: post #37
PartiallyTyped wrote: post #29

I come from South Eastern Europe and lived quite a bit with my grandparents, my parents are split though. The experience wasn't really good. Older people tend to have a very fixed and opinionated idea of what is good or 'correct' that does not match the reality. I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. Guess who studied CompSci? S…

>I heard for the best part of my adolescence and childhood that 'sitting in-front of a computer will not put food on your plate'. To be fair to your grandparents, large amount of screen time is not good for children and teenagers. And let's face it, if you were like a typical teenager, your screen time was largely devoted to gaming or other non-academic endeavors. I suspect when you have children of your own, you'll…

I think he meant he was working/studying CompSci and his grand-parents didn't understand what he was doing.
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