Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

huffingtonpost.in

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 80 posts

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#31

Post by smdz »

moh_maya wrote: post #8
ch_123 wrote: post #3

The headline has been editorialized. While I don't agree with what the authorities did here, and believe the developer was acting in good faith, the developer created an app for buying railway tickets which charged a small fee for the tickets - the issue was that he was arrested for making money off ticket sales, as opposed to "automating forms on a website"

Yep. He circumvented rate-limiters that ensured that you couldn't game the booking system. The regulations very clearly prohibit this to ensure fair access. Now, one can absolutely argue about whether this form of rate limiting is the right approach, but to circumvent something that is clearly prohibited & charge money to do that is illegal. This does not mean that I think the current system is perfect OR that there…

This is a case of 'BUREAUCRATS STIFLING INNOVATION' and this is how it often looks like. He could have gone through legal channels to approve his app and would not be able to find approvals even after being able to afford those financially.

Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? If Railways gave 10 Rs for each such failure, they will go bankrupt within 2 hours. First-come-first-serve does not mean fair access when they can't fix their technical problems.

And this guy charged money only after the cost of the servers was high. To give a context the alleged amount between 2016 and 2020 he earned in 4 years is in the range of 27k-30kUSD. That is as per Railways. It is likely to be inflated. Pretty sure he was running into losses.

However I doubt he is totally innocent. Most developers would know this app would be illegal. Or may be he is just too naive - hard to say that since he is an IITian. The railways will probably find out each ticket booked, heavily penalize each such booking, add huge interest to that till date and make the total amount sound like a huge scam. Adventures with Indian bureaucracy will cost him big unless he manages to heavily PR himself as a victim.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#32

Post by Niten »

moh_maya wrote: post #13
avh02 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when i visited india, i found the "next generation" booking system to be a bit of a joke, so i don't blame this guy for trying to make it better (whether or not he was profiting). My favourite part was the "maintenance" window the website would go through every night. Which was never really indicated on the website other than vague messages/errors - but everybody knew that's what it was.

I think This is a very naïve, unfair take on one of the world's most sophisticated, complex, real-time booking systems that is unparalleled in what it enables. [1,2] The front end definitely can be much much better; but the issue is very simply there are not enough tickets to match the demand. "From 29 tickets booked in a day in 2002, it has reached to 13 Lakh tickets a day as of now. It is reported that the IRCTC sy…

> If anyone has better references on the frankly astounding technical accomplishment that the CRIS Passenger Reservation system, please share.

Huh? You've described a run-of-the-mill, moderate-scale reservation system. This is not "astounding" in any sense except, perhaps, the hyperbole.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#33

Post by OkayPhysicist »

jaikant77 wrote: post #27
jaikant77 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has a strong legal framework and unfortunately very poor implementation (the arrest is an example of poor implementation/bullying by the state). When you say illegal, you should be able to specify the law under which it is illegal. Broadly classifying anything not convenient to the state as illegal does not stand ground, AFAIK there is no law which prohibits automation of forms on any website?

The car parking analogy does not fit. But if you want to use a similar analogy. Assume there is toll road which allows the first 100 cars. This guy uses his superior tech skills, to get his clients (cars) in the first 100. He charges them a premium. Now the toll road keepers, arrest him for helping his clients? That I think is wrong. If his clients had complained that he didn't deliver on his promise but charged mone…

Under that analogy, pretty much all cracking is fair game.

Reselling credit card numbers you pilferred from a poorly secured website's database? You just helped your customers access information that was basically already publically available.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#34

Post by jkoudys »

ch_123 wrote: post #24
jaikant77 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has a strong legal framework and unfortunately very poor implementation (the arrest is an example of poor implementation/bullying by the state). When you say illegal, you should be able to specify the law under which it is illegal. Broadly classifying anything not convenient to the state as illegal does not stand ground, AFAIK there is no law which prohibits automation of forms on any website?

You're attacking a strawman here. The issue was that he was making a profit by reselling tickets, not by automating filling forms in a website. The mechanism is not particularly relevant. By analogy, it is legal to park my car in my own garden, but not legal to park it in my neighbour's garden. If I were to do that, I might expect to be punished for "parking my car".

You start by accusing him of using a strawman, then using an analogy which doesn't even remotely apply. It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands.

Even my closer analogy is still pretty far off and it's much more innocent. Maybe closer to charging a fee to use a very tricky to figure out parking meter.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#36

Post by jkoudys »

avh02 wrote: post #6
Karupan wrote: post #4

People outside India may not realize the importance of train tickets and how difficult they can be to book. Trains are still the primary mode of transport for long distance travel and some routes get booked out in minutes after reservations open. There have been ticket mafias who mass book tickets and resell them in the black market for a huge profit. I do appreciate that the developer was solving a genuine need, so…

when i visited india, i found the "next generation" booking system to be a bit of a joke, so i don't blame this guy for trying to make it better (whether or not he was profiting). My favourite part was the "maintenance" window the website would go through every night. Which was never really indicated on the website other than vague messages/errors - but everybody knew that's what it was.

This is most Indian web apps, I find. The article is great because it ties it the well known failures in implementation to massive legal, bureaucratic, and cultural problems. India has no shortage of talented programmers. I find it hard enough to work with clients who want status reports every hour and change requirements frequently, I can't imagine ever getting anything done with the spectre of physical arrest hanging over me too.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#37

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

sokoloff wrote: post #21
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #20

so let me get this correct for non indians here. a stupid ass government website for booking railway tickets which is the opposite of intuitive, crashes daily, has pathetic captcha and has all sorts of glitches. if facebook can handle a billion users on a daily basis, why cant the irctc website. in 2020 this unacceptable. coming on to the guy here, >Developing an unauthorised software bypassing e-ticketing system is…

> so why not have this functionality in the first party website in the first place? This functionality being to work-around the intended first-come, first-serve allocation of these last minute tickets? It sounds like the overall system isn’t in a healthy, modern state, but I don’t think the essential feature this guy’s tool provided is desired by the original website.

why do you have a lottery system?

can you buy an airline ticket at the airport 2 minutes before boarding? yes. does the system accurately track unbooked seats with 100% accuracy? yes. can you "automate" airline ticket booking with an almost 1 click operation? yes. can the millions of airline websites and agents manage simultaneous ticket booking of a single seat so that at no time are two people charged for the same ticket? yes. can they reschedule, do web check in, assign seats, book meals, cancel tickets? yes. can they offer error free painless booking experience without plastering user with stupid captchas or otps? yes.

if yatra.com can do it, irtctc not doing it because they follow some arcane regulations about "security" and not doing things intuitively is why they are shit and the onus is on irctc to provide feature parity with airlines experience. dont blame someone on helping

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#38

Post by sbmthakur »

jaikant77 wrote: post #19
moh_maya wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, for railways ticket bookings, yes; not banned but illegal. However, it's common knowledge that they exist and are used.

India has a strong legal framework and unfortunately very poor implementation (the arrest is an example of poor implementation/bullying by the state). When you say illegal, you should be able to specify the law under which it is illegal. Broadly classifying anything not convenient to the state as illegal does not stand ground, AFAIK there is no law which prohibits automation of forms on any website?

The article itself mentions this:

Under the Railways Act, all those who help passengers with ticketing are expected to register with the IRCTC as an agent. Does this apply for app creators? The officer reserved his comment.

I think the case depends on how the court interprets that question.

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#39

Post by sbmthakur »

ch_123 wrote: post #3

The headline has been editorialized. While I don't agree with what the authorities did here, and believe the developer was acting in good faith, the developer created an app for buying railway tickets which charged a small fee for the tickets - the issue was that he was arrested for making money off ticket sales, as opposed to "automating forms on a website"

This is still better. Certain publications described this as an attempt to stifle innovation.

https://theprint.in/opinion/india-wants-innovation-but-arres...

Re: Indian developer jailed for making unauthorized train ticket booking app

#40

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

sokoloff wrote: post #21
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #20

so let me get this correct for non indians here. a stupid ass government website for booking railway tickets which is the opposite of intuitive, crashes daily, has pathetic captcha and has all sorts of glitches. if facebook can handle a billion users on a daily basis, why cant the irctc website. in 2020 this unacceptable. coming on to the guy here, >Developing an unauthorised software bypassing e-ticketing system is…

> so why not have this functionality in the first party website in the first place? This functionality being to work-around the intended first-come, first-serve allocation of these last minute tickets? It sounds like the overall system isn’t in a healthy, modern state, but I don’t think the essential feature this guy’s tool provided is desired by the original website.

>There are Maximum Waiting List Limits in the PRS booking system for which Waitlisted Tickets can be issued after all confirmed tickets are exhausted. Your ticket booking request may get declined as the Maximum Waiting List Limit may be reached in the booking system by the time payment success response is received from your bank. In such case, your deducted amount will be refunded back, without any deductions, to your bank account in 3-5 working days. Inconvenience caused is regretted.

do you understand having a waitlist in 2020 means you are doing something seriously wrong in your workflow

Post reply on HN