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The election of the doge

generalist.academy

31–40 of 99 posts

Re: The election of the doge

#31
post #25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true of an election being decided by one vote.

It seems to me that the exact opposite thing is true of an election decided by one vote.

They probably mean exactly one vote being the deciding vote for an election - 13567 votes for the winner, 13566 votes for the runner-up. Which would be the case where each and every voter's vote mattered.

Re: The election of the doge

#32

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

The problem with this technique is that it takes most representatives several years to learn the mechanics of governing effectively - how to laws without unintentional loopholes, what the other relevant laws are, details of particular fields of interest (eg, space policy). The legislature has to have these details if it’s going to do anything at all. If the representatives don’t have that knowledge they’ll get it fro…

That's what an apolitical public service is for.

America is rather an oddity where heads of federal agencies are political appointees whose terms are contingent on the ruling party.

Re: The election of the doge

#33

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

I've met too many complete fucks to believe in this concept. To be workable it would have to have some kind of qualifications. Maybe you randomly choose 99 people and then they can choose one among themselves in a deliberative process. Or maybe you have some requirements like a college degree, a clean employment and criminal history, etc.

Re: The election of the doge

#34

This is fascinating. One thing that would be awesome to try would be doing this with the House of Representatives in the US. Basically, one registered voter would be randomly chosen from each congressional district. They would be obligated to serve for the 2 year term and paid the current salary of a member of Congress ($174,000/year). They would never be part of the lottery again after 1 term. I think this could hav…

It would greatly enhance the corrosive effects of lobbyists. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/01/18/five-reason...

If you want to make Congress more effective, pay them and their staffers as much (or more) than they'd make in the private sector. https://sunlightfoundation.com/policy/documents/keeping_cong...

Re: The election of the doge

#35

In the painting, that room is much smaller than it's depicted I think, or maybe people were a lot smaller in those days

church culture likes to make buildings (and fantastic ideas) gigantic and super powerful whilst individuals are thought of as small and insignificant and devious and vicious. of course this is not the way the church hierarchy regards itself, but this is the style they will impose for their "art" as a form of propaganda, to push their narratives.

Re: The election of the doge

#36
post #3

It’s fascinating how random selection plays an essential role in the election. The final phase’s selection isn’t random, but many intermediary phases are. I think randomness is an underrated tool for introducing a sense of “fairness” to problems with strange power dynamics: where everyone is interested in a fair outcome, but the best outcome for any individual causes some harm to the group. Salary negotiation is one…

What if randomness here also might be a mechanism for possible divine intervention?

I think it's more likely that "divine intervention" often was a cover for randomness, with extra benefit of granting some legitimacy to the process in religious societies.

Re: The election of the doge

#37
post #4
post #3

It’s fascinating how random selection plays an essential role in the election. The final phase’s selection isn’t random, but many intermediary phases are. I think randomness is an underrated tool for introducing a sense of “fairness” to problems with strange power dynamics: where everyone is interested in a fair outcome, but the best outcome for any individual causes some harm to the group. Salary negotiation is one…

> Imagine haggling over the range start or range size, and then picking your salary from a uniform distribution contained by that range. I cannot imagine anyone, ever, being happy with being told "hey you're great but you only rolled a 4 on your salary negotiation so you're $15k out of pocket.

And if you roll a high salary your employer has an incentive to get rid of you and replace you with someone who rolled a 2.

Re: The election of the doge

#38
Like a lot of commentors I think that sortition could be a useful part of the democratic process. However I think it's better as a component than the whole thing, which is also shown in the Doge election.

It's worth remembering that voting is already only the last step of a process:

  1 Candidates self-select

  2 party selection panel (or primary election)

  3 election
In my opinion a good process would be:

  1 voters form into groups of 100-200 (the range is so that a group that's too large can just split)

  2 each group elects one of their number

  3 sortition among these
This preserves most of sortitions resistance to cliques and elite capture, but still gives a decent chance of selecting people in the top 5% by whatever metric the voters prefer, and allows them to learn (let's not select someone like that next time)

Re: The election of the doge

#39
I highly suggest reading up on the history of Venice, it's such an informative topic for me in studying history. For example, the War of the Legue of Cambrai is one of the most fascinating and illuminating wars that no one really knows about... a world war before the first world war. The origins of diplomacy (and espionage) there along with the banking and monetery systems alone are worth the study!

The oath of the council of ten? "Jura, perjura, secretum prodere noli" Swear, foreswear, and reveal not the secret.

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