A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison • Hacker News Board

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#31

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #15

avs733 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a large portion of the US electorate sees drug users and criminals as inherently violent. It isn't a fact or a conscious choice but rather a belief built from the constant narrative of tough on crime. It is also fundamentally, systematically, and intentionally racist.

I'm wondering what set people off on downvoting your comment, as it's a commonly held view for anybody who has spent more than a small amount of time looking into our justice system, though perhaps shocking to those who have not examined the prison system. Perhaps the contrast between "not a conscious choice" and "intentionally racist"?

Probably because in people's experience "a large portion of the US electorate sees drug users and criminals as inherently violent" is untrue. Heck even the most hard line anti-drug politicians tend to stop short of calling drug users "inherently violent". The most extreme mainstream opinions tend to be things along the lines of "stop providing narcan and the problem will solve itself".

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#32

Post by callamdelaney » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #15

avs733 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a large portion of the US electorate sees drug users and criminals as inherently violent. It isn't a fact or a conscious choice but rather a belief built from the constant narrative of tough on crime. It is also fundamentally, systematically, and intentionally racist.

I'm wondering what set people off on downvoting your comment, as it's a commonly held view for anybody who has spent more than a small amount of time looking into our justice system, though perhaps shocking to those who have not examined the prison system. Perhaps the contrast between "not a conscious choice" and "intentionally racist"?

Probably because the user didn't provide any evidence to back up his claim.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#33

Post by kls » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

fuzzybear3965 wrote: post #8

What's his plan? Take it day by day? Watch his back? Also (infer no adversarial tone), he seems to imply that he needs to be prepared to defend himself against attack, ostensibly using his lingering Krav Maga skill and instincts. Does that violate his pacifism? Maybe "pacifist", in this context, should be understood to mean "unaffiliated with any gang".

It depends, pacifist is a catch all term not unlike vegetarian. There are total pacifist who will not utilize violence in any form. Then their are pacifist that believe in personal self defence (and that of family) but not offensive violence in any form. Then their are pacifist that don't reason about it on a personal level, rather they do not believe in the validity of government sanctioned violence, but are OK with getting into a prison fight over a disagreement. Pacifism is a philosophical viewpoint and like most things philosophical it has a spectrum.

I consider myself to be a pacifist, but not to the extent that Buddha or Jesus where pacifists, I would be hard pressed to not defend my children or my wife if they were being attacked. For me personally, if I were assaulted, I would try to reach reason and understanding before the violence escalated. If I were being attacked, I would defend myself to the extent that I could get away from the assailant.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#34

Post by ada1981 » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #12

tall wrote: post #2

This is a bleak reminder that prisons are a crime against humanity, no deserves to live in constant fear for their own survival. Not only that but prisoners are a very vulnerable population often exploited for labor, medical experiments and general abuse.

I agree there's a lot to be done to reduce the number of prisoners. But at the end of the day, what do you do about members of society who greatly harm others? (murder, rape, etc)? I can't think of any effective solutions which aren't prison, death penalty, or prison-disguised-as-something-else (like a hospital). Maybe exile? What's your philosophy in those cases?

Some sort of cooperative living space; rehabilitative; access to plant medicines and therapy; nature to farm.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#35

Post by tyingq » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #30

sergiotapia wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read and heard that size doesn't mean anything in prison. If you're a horse you'll just get jumped by 8 dudes. If that fails, next time 10 dudes. It isn't like the movies.

What you've read is a distorted stereotype. Prisons are extraordinarily violent places by normal standards, but "extraordinarily violent" means that something like 20% of prisoners report being assaulted. A substantial majority of prisoners can expect to avoid being seriously victimized, although I want to be clear that I'm not implying that unlucky 20% somehow deserve it.

I'm going to guess that most prisoners that are assaulted don't report it. That 20% DO REPORT IT implies a much higher number that are assaulted and don't say anything.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#36

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #35

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you've read is a distorted stereotype. Prisons are extraordinarily violent places by normal standards, but "extraordinarily violent" means that something like 20% of prisoners report being assaulted. A substantial majority of prisoners can expect to avoid being seriously victimized, although I want to be clear that I'm not implying that unlucky 20% somehow deserve it.

I'm going to guess that most prisoners that are assaulted don't report it. That 20% DO REPORT IT implies a much higher number that are assaulted and don't say anything.

The number is based on third-party surveys (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811042/) - those surveys could still be biased, but I don't know that there's any better way to get this information and there's no obvious reason the prisoners would be incentivized to lie. You're definitely right that most assaults aren't reported to the prison authorities, for obvious reasons of retaliation.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#37

Post by sevencolors » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

I'm glad we're starting to move the conversation and American laws towards decriminalizing drugs. With Oregon leading the way last week.

Focusing on helping addiction not ignoring it and shaming people will go a long way to breaking the cycle

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#38

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #34

umvi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree there's a lot to be done to reduce the number of prisoners. But at the end of the day, what do you do about members of society who greatly harm others? (murder, rape, etc)? I can't think of any effective solutions which aren't prison, death penalty, or prison-disguised-as-something-else (like a hospital). Maybe exile? What's your philosophy in those cases?

Some sort of cooperative living space; rehabilitative; access to plant medicines and therapy; nature to farm.

No to plant medicines. It is cruel to subject someone only to plant medicine, doubly so if it hasn't been rigorously tested: Give folks actual, up to date medicine instead. You know, the same quality that everyone on the planet should have. There is no reason someone should have to suffer more than they should. If you need anti-depressants, by all means, please have access. And to drugs that alter the course of auto-immune diseases to make them less of an impact on quality of life: Please give high blood pressure meds and insulin if needed.

Farming and nature isn't a cure, and does nothing to help someone adapt to the city they will likely be living in upon release.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#39

Post by sleavey » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:48 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #22

sleavey wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the fact that smoking remains legal indoors in prisons. I get that there would be extra stress from withdrawal for new inmates, but it might let them quit a nasty, expensive habit while they're in. Plus, it's bad for the health of everyone in there, whether they're smoking or not, including the guards; they have no choice in being able to get away from smokers like you would do on the outside.

There's plenty (most, even?) of US prisons that don't allow any kind of tobacco. It's hard to make generalized statements as they are all different.

The one in the article mentions it. I shouldn't have generalised to the whole US, but my point stands for that particular prison and others like it.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#40

Post by somebodythere » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

99_00 wrote: post #10

tall wrote: post #2

This is a bleak reminder that prisons are a crime against humanity, no deserves to live in constant fear for their own survival. Not only that but prisoners are a very vulnerable population often exploited for labor, medical experiments and general abuse.

True, and our focus should be on correcting the societal failures that lead to people ending up there. Because prisons aren't going to away. But we can all agree that we should help people who need it.

The societal failings like prisons existing in the first place? The police and courts who supply a steady stream of fodder to the prison-industrial complex? The legislators who create innumerable and overbroad laws to give the above carte blanche to abuse vulnerable groups?

By all means, let us get rid of all of these things.