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Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

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Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#31

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

spanktheuser wrote: post #6

What a mess. In small tribes social control can be directly maintained as members have perfect knowledge of any individual’s reputation. This mechanism doesn’t scale beyond a few hundred individuals so institutions such as hierarchical organized religion were invented. We have established words (oppression) and jargon (social control) for this already. The author has decorated an old concept with new jargon and is pa…

Don't you see how this response demonstrates the author's point? We're in an intellectual environment where people routinely scan for deviations from cultural norms - where hints that the author might secretly believe bad things are considered a strong form of argument. It's hard to meaningfully dispute the social consensus among one's peers in such an environment.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#32

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

chrisweekly wrote: post #24
baryphonic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah. Rodriguez resents progressive movements that seek to upend the current social hierarchy (presumably because Rodriguez enjoys exerting social control far more than experiencing it) and has coined this new jargon to associate movements he dislikes with a reviled term (totalitarianism) > > Rodriguez begins with an intellectual lie, then uses it to advance the idea that anti-racist and anti-misogynist movements are…

"progressives... have a complete monopoly over the relevant cultural power" Can you really make that claim, in light of the current political climate and in-progress election results?

"Complete" goes too far, I agree, but it's also not right to think these movements are standing up to the powers that be. A movement including JPMorgan, Google, Nike, Walmart, Chevron, etc. has to be seen as a component of the current social hierarchy rather than a challenge to it.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#33

Post by anemoiac »

So, to be clear, it’s horizontal totalitarianism when members of a society cast judgment on those who view homosexuals as illegitimate, for example, but not when society itself marginalizes homosexuals because they are generally viewed as illegitimate? I’m not sure the author would agree with this characterization, but it seems entirely compatible with the logic they presented here.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#34

Post by akiselev »

evgen wrote: post #29
YPCrumble wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ad hominem attacks like this one calling him insane and questioning his ethics illustrate the author’s thesis quite effectively.

The intellectually dishonesty is quite apparent. Questioning his ethics and motivations is not a particularly difficult leap given the mediocre argument presented. If you think it supports the author's stated thesis (and not the hidden these of "why don't these people agree with my opinions and stop forcing me to question my own role in the current structure") then perhaps you need to work on your critical thinking s…

> then perhaps you need to work on your critical thinking skills

The irony here is palpable. You replied to an accusation of ad hominem with a very salient point and then followed it up with vapid rhetoric that taints your analysis with the same level of bias as the article author.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#35

Post by akiselev »

baryphonic wrote: post #15
spanktheuser wrote: post #6

What a mess. In small tribes social control can be directly maintained as members have perfect knowledge of any individual’s reputation. This mechanism doesn’t scale beyond a few hundred individuals so institutions such as hierarchical organized religion were invented. We have established words (oppression) and jargon (social control) for this already. The author has decorated an old concept with new jargon and is pa…

> Ah. Rodriguez resents progressive movements that seek to upend the current social hierarchy (presumably because Rodriguez enjoys exerting social control far more than experiencing it) and has coined this new jargon to associate movements he dislikes with a reviled term (totalitarianism) > > Rodriguez begins with an intellectual lie, then uses it to advance the idea that anti-racist and anti-misogynist movements are…

BLM started as a response to police brutality driven by an institution that is quite literally the furthest you could get from progressive ideals. In the last hundred years, these police departments: violently broke up strikes at the behest of corporations, tried to put down the Civil Rights movement, and have been by far the biggest proponent of the destructive war on drugs. Institutions that to this day have nearly impenetrable qualified immunity - a level of power no one else has.

#MeToo started as a response to a flood of accusations against Harvey Weinstein, quite literally one of the most powerful and influential people in Hollywood at the time. It was followed up by a flood of accusations against Les Moonves, CEO of CBS, one of the most powerful and influential people in television broadcasting at the time. These men were at the top for decades

Your analysis makes no logical sense. The nature of these institutions hasn't changed, some figureheads were sacrificed and shuffled around (literally, in the case of police departments).

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#36

Post by Joker_vD »

akiselev wrote: post #35
baryphonic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah. Rodriguez resents progressive movements that seek to upend the current social hierarchy (presumably because Rodriguez enjoys exerting social control far more than experiencing it) and has coined this new jargon to associate movements he dislikes with a reviled term (totalitarianism) > > Rodriguez begins with an intellectual lie, then uses it to advance the idea that anti-racist and anti-misogynist movements are…

BLM started as a response to police brutality driven by an institution that is quite literally the furthest you could get from progressive ideals. In the last hundred years, these police departments: violently broke up strikes at the behest of corporations, tried to put down the Civil Rights movement, and have been by far the biggest proponent of the destructive war on drugs. Institutions that to this day have nearly…

Interesting that BLM seems believe that the largest cause of violent deaths of black persons is police brutality, not the gang violence. Or does the US police actually manage to kill more African-Americans than the ghetto gangs? That'd actually be impressive.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#37

Post by akiselev »

Joker_vD wrote: post #36
akiselev wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BLM started as a response to police brutality driven by an institution that is quite literally the furthest you could get from progressive ideals. In the last hundred years, these police departments: violently broke up strikes at the behest of corporations, tried to put down the Civil Rights movement, and have been by far the biggest proponent of the destructive war on drugs. Institutions that to this day have nearly…

Interesting that BLM seems believe that the largest cause of violent deaths of black persons is police brutality, not the gang violence. Or does the US police actually manage to kill more African-Americans than the ghetto gangs? That'd actually be impressive.

It's interesting that you believe that they believe that. I was not aware that an organization like BLM proper or a "social movement" like BLM in general could have a unified set of beliefs. It's a physical impossibility.

What's the difference between a gang and a "ghetto gang"?

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#38

Post by lr4444lr »

evgen wrote: post #29
YPCrumble wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ad hominem attacks like this one calling him insane and questioning his ethics illustrate the author’s thesis quite effectively.

The intellectually dishonesty is quite apparent. Questioning his ethics and motivations is not a particularly difficult leap given the mediocre argument presented. If you think it supports the author's stated thesis (and not the hidden these of "why don't these people agree with my opinions and stop forcing me to question my own role in the current structure") then perhaps you need to work on your critical thinking s…

So what substance of Rodriguez's argument do you actually disagree with, then?

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#39

Post by pjc50 »

Joker_vD wrote: post #36
akiselev wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BLM started as a response to police brutality driven by an institution that is quite literally the furthest you could get from progressive ideals. In the last hundred years, these police departments: violently broke up strikes at the behest of corporations, tried to put down the Civil Rights movement, and have been by far the biggest proponent of the destructive war on drugs. Institutions that to this day have nearly…

Interesting that BLM seems believe that the largest cause of violent deaths of black persons is police brutality, not the gang violence. Or does the US police actually manage to kill more African-Americans than the ghetto gangs? That'd actually be impressive.

The difference is that murders by gangs are prosecuted, whereas murders by police tend not to be.

Re: Horizontal totalitarianism in life and literature

#40

Post by klyrs »

anemoiac wrote: post #33

So, to be clear, it’s horizontal totalitarianism when members of a society cast judgment on those who view homosexuals as illegitimate, for example, but not when society itself marginalizes homosexuals because they are generally viewed as illegitimate? I’m not sure the author would agree with this characterization, but it seems entirely compatible with the logic they presented here.

One wonders what critics of "cancel culture" think happened to Martin Luther King and Harvey Milk
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