What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness • Hacker News Board

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#31

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #29

whatshisface wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

Thomas More, author of "Utopia", had six people burned at the stake for heresy when he was Lord Chancellor of England in 1529-32. That's no different from human sacrifice to a god.

It's difficult to weigh the difference between two extreme bads, so I understand how you could come to that conclusion. However "don't say anything on this list of things not to say" is an order that could at least by choice be complied with. Imagine yourself in Europe and also in Central America. Would you rather live under the fear of heresy laws or under the fear of human sacrifice? In the former case you could choose between complying with the unjust ruler or standing up to them, in the latter, you just die.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#32

Post by garren » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #27

edmundsauto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

Execution “for fun” seems inappropriate here, doesn’t it? The comparison to medieval European justice also seems a little apples and oranges. Maybe a comparison to the Inquisition and/or the burning of supposed witches - both religious in nature, both horrendous, both seemingly an attempt to unify societies under a common belief?

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#33

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

velcrovan wrote: post #30

whatshisface wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

The fact that the justice system was so shoddy, and the fact that public executions were a form of entertainment, really makes this a distinction without a difference.

Their justice system had some amount of accuracy. Human sacrifice has no accuracy. If a distinction of degree is a distinction without a difference, then I propose that I give you 0% of my possessions in exchange for 10% of yours. ;)

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#34

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

garren wrote: post #32

whatshisface wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

Execution “for fun” seems inappropriate here, doesn’t it? The comparison to medieval European justice also seems a little apples and oranges. Maybe a comparison to the Inquisition and/or the burning of supposed witches - both religious in nature, both horrendous, both seemingly an attempt to unify societies under a common belief?

The Inquisition is getting closer, but moving the conversation from the justice system to the inquisition does make it look like we're just trying to compare the moral goodness of Europeans and Aztecs. Well, groups like "Europeans" can't have a level of moral goodness, only individual people can. Obviously any European serial killer was worse than the average Aztec. So if that's the discussion we're implicitly having, that's a poorly founded discussion.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#35

Post by edmundsauto » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #27

edmundsauto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

First off, I’m just relaying information that I found interesting. Relax and try to have an interesting conversation rather than win an internet point.

I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. It’s also probably worth noting the religious aspect of it - people in religions sometimes seem willing to sacrifice their life for their gods, so I’m not 100% sure that the sacrifice victims or society didn’t get something out of it. In fact, they got the same thing as Europe - a tighter societal bond.

That being said, we know so little about the Aztecs compared to Europe that it would be impossible to make an informed if absurd decision as to which way I would want to be executed.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#36

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #35

whatshisface wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

First off, I’m just relaying information that I found interesting. Relax and try to have an interesting conversation rather than win an internet point. I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. It’s also probably worth noting the religious aspect of it - people in religions sometimes seem willing to sacrifice their life for their gods, so…

>I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar.

You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suicidal cult than it is to visit the doctor's office.

>we know so little about the Aztecs compared to Europe that it would be impossible to make an informed if absurd decision as to which way I would want to be executed.

The reason you'd want to pick the justice system is that justice systems, even when imperfect, can still declare innocent people innocent. A justice system sometimes makes mistakes, the Aztec temple only made mistakes.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#37

Post by nullstyle » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #31

pavlov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas More, author of "Utopia", had six people burned at the stake for heresy when he was Lord Chancellor of England in 1529-32. That's no different from human sacrifice to a god.

It's difficult to weigh the difference between two extreme bads, so I understand how you could come to that conclusion. However "don't say anything on this list of things not to say" is an order that could at least by choice be complied with. Imagine yourself in Europe and also in Central America. Would you rather live under the fear of heresy laws or under the fear of human sacrifice? In the former case you could ch…

"Would you rather live under the fear of heresy laws or under the fear of human sacrifice?" citations needed

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#38

Post by lotsofcows » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #36

edmundsauto wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I’m just relaying information that I found interesting. Relax and try to have an interesting conversation rather than win an internet point. I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. It’s also probably worth noting the religious aspect of it - people in religions sometimes seem willing to sacrifice their life for their gods, so…

> I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suici…

Seem's a little disrespectful of others' belief systems. How can you possibly know that the God's sacrifices were a "mistake"?

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#39

Post by whatshisface » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

lotsofcows wrote: post #38

whatshisface wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suici…

Seem's a little disrespectful of others' belief systems. How can you possibly know that the God's sacrifices were a "mistake"?

Ancient religions had not evolved to be unfalsifiable like modern ones have. The Aztecs believed that they could get something by earning favor - and since they weren't actually getting anything, they were factually wrong in a way no modern religion can manage.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#40

Post by drummer » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

History is written by the victors. It would be in their interests to demonize the Aztecs as much as possible. Stories about sacrifices should be taken with a grain of salt unless there is hard evidence. Even if there were sacrifices, it would be good to find the exact reasons and circumstances for why that occured.