The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous • Hacker News Board

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#31

Post by eli » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:40 PM UTC

It's unreasonable to demand the results of an election when some states have not yet even received all the legally cast mail-in ballots. Further, Republican legislatures in three states forced through new rules this election to block the counting of mail-in ballots until after election day making it impossible to have instant results.

And it's bizarre to indict our vote counting system based on the fact that it's hard for the media to guess the winner from incomplete data. Nobody wins any electoral college votes until the Secretary of State certifies the results. It takes a while because they make sure all the votes are counted first. This is a feature not a bug.

There are some real issues in election administration in the US, but this ain't it. If it were up to me, I'd ban the release of uncertified election results, at least for a few days. The problem he identifies is one of expectations.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#32

Post by manquer » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

milquetoastaf wrote: post #7

I normally like Glenn's writing but this is just FUD. Historically it has always taken days to count up all the votes due to the heterogeneity of the ballot systems used by the State's. Not to mention the actual electors in the College don't even vote until December - and aren't always faithful to the popular vote. People are acting like this is the end of the world or some horrible crisis that we don't know the outc…

He is not claiming the problems are recent either. He is explicitly saying the problems predate even the disputed 2000's cycle.

His point stripped of the vitriol is the trust in the system is eroded when there is substantial delays in declaring the result.

It is important in a fragile democracy to declare the results without delay, it is also why countries like Brazil do it fast.

Sadly America is a fragile democracy today, the sitting President inability to commit to peaceful transfer of power , prematurely claiming victory, trying to stop counting , or constant attacks on the integrity of the election and fraudulent votes , if it is any other country you would agree without question.

It is by design that each state has heterogeneous voting system , However while nation thinks it votes for the president it is just voting a guidance to their legislature on who the electors should be,there is no constitutional protection otherwise. Just this election 15$/hour minimum wage and other policy items have been passed by same people who have voted for trump , clearly policy is not deciding factor to elect the president.

It is important to align the system to what people think they are voting for,

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#33

Post by la6471 » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

tgb wrote: post #12

I just worked the polls in Pennsylvania - the new voting machines are pretty great. You get a paper ballot, you insert it, you use a touchscreen to make choices, the machine prints the ballot with your choices on it, shows it to you behind plexiglass, you check over it for correctness. If it's all good, you hit done and the ballot is pulled in to a hopper. If not, you can redo. You get a machine count instantly at th…

Very well said. Thank you. Let’s appreciate what we have.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#34

Post by sukilot » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #26

The biggest issue is this ridiculous heterogeneity. Canada is no less of a federal country with devolved decision-making powers, perhaps even more so. And yet we have one system of casting and tallying votes, presided over by one federal electoral commission, which reports to the parliament and not to the government. It was set up in 1920 and worked out very well for us, delivering 100 years of bullshit-free election…

Canada doesn't have anything like a President. The Prime Minister is chosen the way the US chooses the Speaker of the House. That's far far more important than the details of the administration of voting.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#35

Post by Dirlewanger » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:43 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #8

milquetoastaf wrote: post #7

I normally like Glenn's writing but this is just FUD. Historically it has always taken days to count up all the votes due to the heterogeneity of the ballot systems used by the State's. Not to mention the actual electors in the College don't even vote until December - and aren't always faithful to the popular vote. People are acting like this is the end of the world or some horrible crisis that we don't know the outc…

A lot of his writing is FUD lately.

Concern and worry about left-leaning "journalists" censoring a newstory (a newstory that, had it happened to the other political party, would have been all over the news in an instant and would be covered for weeks on end) is FUD?

Yup, keep downvoting me retards because I want a free and objective press. You've destroyed this website, hope you're happy.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#36

Post by mitchdoogle » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:43 PM UTC

A member of the news media should know better than to complain about the vote tallies flipping overnight. We've known for weeks that it was likely for several states to flip like this because these states were not allowed to count the mail-in ballots as they came in. In the states where it was allowed to count votes early, the vote tally was released last night, in similar speed to his example of Brazil.

What's really dangerous is that the same people who said that mail-in votes couldn't be counted early in states like PA are now saying they shouldn't be counted after election day. It's disenfranchisement, plain and simple.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#37

Post by tyingq » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:45 PM UTC

salicideblock wrote: post #18

tyingq wrote: post #2

I'm not particularly bothered that it might take another day or two for all the votes to be counted. I'd much rather have the devil I know than a bunch of automation and technology that might have bigger issues. Since it's not nationally controlled, and each US state (and county) can do what it wants, a big push to use tech is almost sure to backfire. And backfire in ways that aren't immediately obvious.

I really don't think this is about a tradeoff between time and reliability. Other developed countries have, for decades, reliably given results within hours of polls closing, without "automation or obscure technology". Time to results is a factor in the credibility of the results, just as auditability and transparency. International election observers regularly raise concerns about protracted and drawn out election c…

"Other developed countries have..."

I suspect they have a way to mandate how local governments handle the voting. The US does not. That's the barrier.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#38

Post by mitchdoogle » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:45 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #6

It's childish and destructively hostile to paint a prediction of the outcome of an election giving high odds to the result that turns out wrong as some kind of catastrophic failure or humiliation. It boggles my mind how many apparently otherwise smart people commit this obvious fallacy out loud.

Its even more childish to do this before final results are even known. Let's wait until votes have been completely counted and then discuss the matter.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#39

Post by tyingq » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

littleweep wrote: post #22

craftinator wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not bothered either. I think one reason this comes across as an "issue" is that a majority of the public believes that "election day", the event, or holiday, or whatever you want to call it, is the day on which a new president is elected. This narrative is pushed by tradition, news media, and the politicians themselves (if it's in their interest). I think we need to separate this narrative in two separate days; o…

I think part of the expectation that results be instant is just that things have gotten faster: I can stream any movie I want instantly -- why do I need to wait to see who won the vote? It's complicated and complicated things take time.

Well, and that it is often is same-day, when the results play out enough to make an electoral prediction with high accuracy. That was the case for many years.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#40

Post by leftyted » Wed, Nov 04, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #6

It's childish and destructively hostile to paint a prediction of the outcome of an election giving high odds to the result that turns out wrong as some kind of catastrophic failure or humiliation. It boggles my mind how many apparently otherwise smart people commit this obvious fallacy out loud.

I agree the language is a bit childish but it is quite remarkable how -- for two elections in a row now -- we've seen these models get so much so wrong. Almost everyone was predicting a landslide for Biden and it's dead heat right now.

It seems that there's something wrong with the polls themselves, how the models interpret the polls, or both.

There's lots of talk about "stealing the election" coming from both sides. Lopsided predictions from polls and models can increase the perception that the election was "stolen" if the vote defies the predictions.