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Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

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Re: Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

#31
post #14
post #9

I can’t think a worse name for a programming language that of an actual language.

The human language is called Catalan in English and català in Catalan.

As a catalan myself I’m well aware of the spelling, but good luck trying to explain that to a search engine.

I get regular hits while looking up Rust just because there’s a game with the same name.

Re: Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

#32
post #16

If you are intrigued by the idea that law can and will be represented as computer code / data, here are a few link to go deeper : * British national act as a logic program (1982): the paper that is the based of most current effort in this domain https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234805335_The_Briti... * Standford codex LSP initiative that try to standarize the format in which legal rule will be encoded https:/…

Do you think it might be possible to eventually use a Deep Learning model like GPT-3 to do the formalisation for us? It seems like a herculean task to do it by hand.

It's already been tried : http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2143/paper9.pdf. In a nutshell : NLP techniques don't work so well on the text of law, because it's too messy.

Re: Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

#33

Cool idea but also comes across as an ultra French idea. French court ruling a as far as I understand are very technocratic. You just must paragraphs applied to reach verdict. At least here in Norway there tends to be a strong emphasis on laws being readable by the common people so regular people better know their rights. E.g. we read consumer laws in high school and that was easy. Older laws are written in a very la…

Hi, Catala author here :) I totally agree that law should be readable and the Norwegian initiative seems great ! However at least in France we're stuck with the law he have and while some are rightfully proposing some simplification (https://www.revolution-fiscale.fr/), we need a good way to apply the current law faithfully not to end up in situations like this one: https://twitter.com/DMerigoux/status/1304367420639973381.

Re: Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

#34
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do those similar projects actually handle ambiguously written laws? All that I see in Catala paper is basically "let this whole thing bounce back and forth between lawyer and programmer until it becomes unambiguous."

To be honest I don't really know in detail. There is an interesting paper about "Computational Law": http://logic.stanford.edu/publications/genesereth/complaw.pd... which says (§3): Computational Law derives its power from its emphasis on deductive reasoning. As such, it simply cannot be applied in cases requiring analogical or inductive reasoning. Fortunately, it is sometimes the case that there are enough judicial…

Hi, Catala author here :) Totally, tax law is usually the most precisely written. But it's still ambiguous as Sarah Lawsky points out https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2987065

Re: Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

#35

This is something I've given some thought to since encountering logic programming. Could something like this be done in say, Prolog?

Yes it could, although I'm not sure there is a single Prolog system running in production inside a large government agency at the moment.

Also Prolog does not solve all the problems related to programming the law, especially it doesn't have a nice way to handle redefinitions of variables with legislative exceptions as described https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3088206

Re: Catala: a programming language for socio-fiscal legislative literate programming

#38

So what is the actual benefit of having the law represented in a programming language?

It helps the State and private organizations to comply with the law when computing income tax, payroll taxes, etc. There's a huge gap between the law and how it is applied in some situations https://twitter.com/DMerigoux/status/1304367420639973381
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