Public Apology to Jeremy Howard • Hacker News Board

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#31

Post by rdiddly » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

There was a pretty lively discussion of this issue yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24926214

...specifically under what is currently the top comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24927123

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#32

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

I too dislike code of conduct type of stuff, but more along the reasoning you mentioned. I dislike that they are even needed in the first place. The fact that you have to be told to not belittle, harass, abuse, etc another user/participant/person is just difficult to understand.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#33

Post by torstenvl » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

eckza wrote: post #10

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I'm probably going to go down with you; but can you elaborate on that a little?

I'm not the OP but:

- There is no presumption of innocence.

- There are no formal rights of an accused.

- There is no clear delineation of what constitutes a violation.

- There is no right to confront those making an allegation.

- There are no negative consequences for making a false allegation.

- All of which leads to a system whereby people are subjected to ostracism and official censure for violating unwritten rules, all without proof. A person can find their life ruined merely by saying the wrong thing or in the wrong tone, all while being told that the system is just and fair and seeking to protect the vulnerable. It is dishonest, it is gaslighting, and it is frankly Soviet.

I am a criminal defense attorney with experience in personnel law. I know first hand how important the presumption of innocence is, and I know first hand how disastrous these personnel management "policies" can be.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#34

Post by dheera » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #23

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I think you might get downvoted because you started with “I’m going to get downvoted for this...”

Reverse psychology often works; I have seen many examples of this on both HN and Reddit.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#35

Post by kurbin » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

They say "Because of the missteps of this committee, we have asked the NumFOCUS Board of Directors to take over the work of the committee", yet the 7-person board of directors overlaps with the 4-person code of conduct committee.

Board of Directors: https://numfocus.org/community/people CoC Committee: https://numfocus.org/code-of-conduct#persons-responsible

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#36

Post by Supermancho » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

> The process has left me shattered, and I won’t be able to accept any speaking requests for the foreseeable future.

In regards to CoCs, sometimes this snowflake mentality seems to go hand in hand, because they are tailored to the most fragile of sensibilities, which is a Bad Thing(tm). I'm not sure how this "shatters" someone or what that even means (not trying to attack here, as it just doesn't make any sense).

- Discriminatory jokes and language - Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms - Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior

These are largely subjective, so why bother caring about what you might have said to set someone off?

So what if you won't take up speaking engagement requests? Duh. As we know that these CoCs are ridiculous and someone might want to seriously consider having nothing to do with organizations that utilize them.

He can post up talks on Youtube if he wants to be heard, especially now.

TL;DR Jeremy did a talk and it turned out strangely so nothing's lost here.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#37

Post by dagmx » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

eznzt wrote: post #27

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

If you need a CoC to get rid of someone who harasses others what you have is a deeper problem

How else would you codify what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour?

Is it just arbitrary? Do you just depend on more people enforcing their views out to stop harassment? If so, then why not codify it?

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#38

Post by 1123581321 » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

Xavdidtheshadow wrote: post #20

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I don't mean this as an attack, but I'm guessing you haven't been harassed/given unwanted attention at a conference. It's easy to see codes of conduct as draconian or unnecessary if you can't empathize with the people they're designed to protect. I'm not saying the CoC system is perfect or that there aren't false positives, but your statement here is _dramatically_ privileged.

Do you think it’s possible to empathize with people who are harassed, or experience harassment, and oppose codes of conduct? Assume that empathy includes caring about protecting people.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#39

Post by HideousKojima » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

curiousllama wrote: post #15

A CoC is exactly as effective as the leadership that writes & enforces it. Sounds like the Board wasn’t happy with how this was enforced, so they stepped in. Good on them. That said, maybe, uh, try and train your folks if you want them to enforce things like that.

>A CoC is exactly as effective as the leadership that writes & enforces it.

And the sorts of people who try to implement CoCs and get on enforcement boards are almost invariably the sort of busybodies that see it as a club to beat their enemies with, which is why I'm opposed to them.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#40

Post by patorjk » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #23

GiorgioG wrote: post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I think you might get downvoted because you started with “I’m going to get downvoted for this...”

I'm not so sure about this. I routinely see comments that start like that with a lot of upvotes. It could be survival bias, but I have a feeling reverse psychology could be coming into play.