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Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

lowtechmagazine.com

31–40 of 95 posts

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#31
post #10

I'll admit this article describes a much less bad system than what I envision when someone mentions compressed air energy storage. On a side note, I wonder what the state of research is on reducing the embodied energy in li-ion battery production. The mentioned figure in the article is surprisingly high (2-10 times the total energy the battery will store - presumably they mean over its lifetime), which now that I thi…

The factory producing batteries pays for power just like everyone else. Whatever energy is consumed in production ends up built into the price of the finished product.

Simple economics puts the lie to outlandish claims intended to manipulate markets.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#33

This article seems to assume we'd convert the compressed air to electricity, but I could think of a bunch of applications that could use mechanical air power instead. Blenders, washers, dryers, dish washers, garage door openers. Basically anything that uses a motor.

Is your blender powered by a hand crank?

I just saw this on a India trip last month ... roadside vendors crushing Aloe for a refreshing summer drink using a hand crank blender ..! I was thinking I need one for myself too ..

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#34
post #10

I'll admit this article describes a much less bad system than what I envision when someone mentions compressed air energy storage. On a side note, I wonder what the state of research is on reducing the embodied energy in li-ion battery production. The mentioned figure in the article is surprisingly high (2-10 times the total energy the battery will store - presumably they mean over its lifetime), which now that I thi…

>2-10 times the total energy the battery will store - presumably they mean over its lifetime

Their number is the reciprocal of this.

i.e. the total energy stored/discharged by the battery over it's lifetime = 2-10x the energy required to manufacture the battery.

Which still seems a bit conservative. The corresponding number they quote for their storage system is 240.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#35

This article seems to assume we'd convert the compressed air to electricity, but I could think of a bunch of applications that could use mechanical air power instead. Blenders, washers, dryers, dish washers, garage door openers. Basically anything that uses a motor.

For things like garage door openers that only run for a moment and only once in a while, the payoff would likely never come. But for things like dryers where it's a simple continuous motion for hours on end, I could see it easily justifying an air motor conversion.

Bonus: Compressed air is inherently dry. It'll come out of the motor cooler than ambient, but pass it through a heat exchanger and you'll get almost-room-temp super-dry air. (And maybe use the exchanger to condense some of the moisture out of the dryer's exhaust; you're halfway to a ventless condensing dryer already!)

I wonder if refrigeration appliances would be designed differently if they assumed compressed air as the power source.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#36

Slightly of-topic: compressed air is the preferred source of power for the tools of Amish people, since their religion doesn't allow them to use electricity or internal combustion engines. https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/home-goods/self-sufficient...

Most Amish sects do not prohibit electricity. It is not uncommon for them to have electrical devices powered by solar panels. I don't think most have anything against internal combustion engines. As your own link notes, they might use such engines to power air compressors.

What concerns the Amish is being too dependent on the outside world. Tying to the regional electrical grid would make them too dependent.

They aren't isolationists, though. They will still buy from and sell to outsiders. Using things like gasoline or diesel generators to power air compressors is OK because it isn't seen as requiring becoming too closely tied. Probably because if their gasoline supplier becomes unreliable, they can buy from someone else.

In general, the Amish avoidance of technology is greatly overstated. They don't so much avoid it as take a very cautious approach, making sure they know how it will impact their society before they let it in.

They have a few people try it out, while the rest observe how it goes, and they watch how the outside world handles it. Only when they understand what changes it will bring, good and bad, do they decide if they are going to adopt it or skip it.

They are kind of like where the rest of us were 20-50 years ago (it varies depending on the particular technology) except they are avoiding the mistakes we were making back then when we were rushing to embrace the latest stuff.

In a few decades, there will probably be Amish equivalents of Facebook and Twitter but without being full of trolling and misinformation, because the Amish will wait for us to figure out how to control that before they make their versions.

Here's a good article on Amish and technology [1].

[1] https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#37
post #6
post #2

Another cool energy storage technique is using subterranean flywheels. They'd probably require less maintenance than other similar energy storage mechanisms.

Flywheel energy storage has been proposed many times, and built a few times. Flywheel-powered buses have been deployed. Not too successfully. EMALS uses a big flywheel to power aircraft carrier catapults. The flywheel energy storage seems to cause most of the problems. The next generation of that system may use ultracapacitors.[1] [1] https://www.ga.com/capacitors/military-mil-spec-capacitors

UT Austin's cannon-caliber railgun had some impressive pulsed-power output from flywheels for demos (a 150g projectile launched at nearly 2km/s), but they were fired a single-digit numbers of times.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#38

Slightly of-topic: compressed air is the preferred source of power for the tools of Amish people, since their religion doesn't allow them to use electricity or internal combustion engines. https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/home-goods/self-sufficient...

Since you mentioned it, are you aware if other energy sources are allowed, such as waterwheels or windmills? Otherwise, how do you compress the air in the first place? How is the air compressor filled without electricity? I vaguely know some Mennonites. One guy has a cell phone and car transmission repair businesses, and computers, but he only uses those things for certain tasks and does not keep the technology in hi…

I think it’s actually becoming quite common for these... Luddite (for lack of a better word) groups to use electronics in business settings only. They’ve mostly accepted that if you want to run a successful business with customers outside the group, you simply have to use electronics.

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#39
post #6
post #2

Another cool energy storage technique is using subterranean flywheels. They'd probably require less maintenance than other similar energy storage mechanisms.

Flywheel energy storage has been proposed many times, and built a few times. Flywheel-powered buses have been deployed. Not too successfully. EMALS uses a big flywheel to power aircraft carrier catapults. The flywheel energy storage seems to cause most of the problems. The next generation of that system may use ultracapacitors.[1] [1] https://www.ga.com/capacitors/military-mil-spec-capacitors

It seems that the flywheel is a monolithic system, and the proposed next gen ultracapacitor is a modular system.

You probably only have one giant flywheel, as the mass is where the energy storage gains make it worthwhile. Maybe you have many of them in parallel, but the size would make scaling an issue. Not to mention that there’s an associated drivetrain and linkages and so on. It’s a fully integrated contraption. It works, but many parts must work in tandem for it to be so.

This is in contrast to an electronic system, which would benefit from miniaturization and isolated redundancy. Racks of capacitors could run as hot spares when energy is abundant next to racks that may be down for maintenance. I doubt that a flywheel can be meaningfully inspected, let alone repaired or upgraded while operating.

That is the benefit of a modular approach to certain problems and not others. The two approaches are not always mutually exclusive either. Capacitors could be used as regenerative brakes for flywheels, for instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolithic_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_design

Re: Ditch the Batteries: Off-Grid Compressed Air Energy Storage (2018)

#40
post #37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flywheel energy storage has been proposed many times, and built a few times. Flywheel-powered buses have been deployed. Not too successfully. EMALS uses a big flywheel to power aircraft carrier catapults. The flywheel energy storage seems to cause most of the problems. The next generation of that system may use ultracapacitors.[1] [1] https://www.ga.com/capacitors/military-mil-spec-capacitors

UT Austin's cannon-caliber railgun had some impressive pulsed-power output from flywheels for demos (a 150g projectile launched at nearly 2km/s), but they were fired a single-digit numbers of times.

It would seem that flywheels can store a lot of energy, but due to the form of the energy storage (kinetic) it’s difficult to discharge the current quickly, so to speak. Especially compared to something like a capacitor which is designed for rapidly discharging a literal current, as opposed to the analogous metaphorical motive current in a flywheel.
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