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How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

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Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#31

Post by ipiz0618 »

v64 wrote: post #4

I play piano and watching videos of Gould playing is fascinating. He violates every rule your piano teacher tells you about performance, from his unusually low chair made to accommodate a back injury to his habit of singing along to tunes that was often picked up in his album recordings. I especially like this performance of Beethoven's 32 variations in C minor by him [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoWXRlw9…

This reminded me of the (in)famous remark of Bernstein before he performed with Glenn Gould the Brahms Piano Concerto (also mentioned in the article):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvWPM783TOE

He was so insistent on his own interpretation, that even one of the best regarded conductors in the world couldn't convince him otherwise. After many years the "unusually" slow tempo doesn't sound so extreme, and to me even preferable. Glenn Gould was incredible in terms of his musical understanding. Maybe that's why his Bach was phenomenal because he could bring out the multiple layers as much as he liked, and even improvising new voices in his humming at times.

If anyone is interested in Brahms Piano Concertos, I also recommend Gilels' performances, which remain the best in my mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqYzBCk_tm4

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#32

Post by mastazi »

antognini wrote: post #30
Thorentis wrote: post #25

> It’s unfashionable these days to play Bach on the piano. According to who? I've played Bach to all sorts of different people, and all have appreciated it and enjoyed it. Sure, they might not listen to it in the car on the way to work (like I might) but that doesn't mean it is "unfashionable" to treat somebody to a live performance of a technically challenging piece by a master composer.

I think the point the author is not that "It's unfashionable these days to play Bach". They are saying that "It's unfashionable these days to play Bach on the piano. " The modern fashion is to play Bach on a period-appropriate instrument like a harpsichord or clavichord. The piano wasn't invented until much later so it is anachronistic to play Bach on a piano. But the disadvantage of Bach on period-appropriate instru…

I think you are getting confused between the piano in general, which existed already, and the piano in its contemporary form, which was developed later.

Bach had a side job that consisted in selling pianos to rich people.

> Even more damning against the “Bach hated pianos” claim is the fact that Bach went on to become an agent for Silbermann, selling his pianos in Leipzig. There’s even a receipt signed by Bach on May 9, 1749, selling a “Piano et Forte” to a Polish count, Jan Casimir von Branitzky.

Source https://notanothermusichistorycliche.blogspot.com/2016/07/di...

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#33

Post by mastazi »

libraryofbabel wrote: post #29
Thorentis wrote: post #25

> It’s unfashionable these days to play Bach on the piano. According to who? I've played Bach to all sorts of different people, and all have appreciated it and enjoyed it. Sure, they might not listen to it in the car on the way to work (like I might) but that doesn't mean it is "unfashionable" to treat somebody to a live performance of a technically challenging piece by a master composer.

I think what’s meant is that playing Bach on an “authentic” period instrument (harpsichord, organ, etc.) is more the fashion. Bach didn’t write for the modern piano, although his music sounds pretty good on it.

Bach wrote for “Klavier” which is a generic definition that may or may not include the piano. We know that early in his life he hated pianos, but later on he changed his mind and even started selling them (he worked as an agent for a piano maker). So, at least for his later works, we could argue that indeed he did write for piano.

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#35

Post by libraryofbabel »

mastazi wrote: post #33
libraryofbabel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what’s meant is that playing Bach on an “authentic” period instrument (harpsichord, organ, etc.) is more the fashion. Bach didn’t write for the modern piano, although his music sounds pretty good on it.

Bach wrote for “Klavier” which is a generic definition that may or may not include the piano. We know that early in his life he hated pianos, but later on he changed his mind and even started selling them (he worked as an agent for a piano maker). So, at least for his later works, we could argue that indeed he did write for piano.

> “didn’t write for the modern piano”

I think we actually agree :)

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#36

Post by iainctduncan »

redis_mlc wrote: post #21

Some factoids about Glenn Gould: - he hosted a music show on CBC radio for decades. (I was fortunate to live in downtown Toronto and received 3 classical FM stations at any time on an audiophile receiver.) - although idiosyncratic in style, if you don't like certain performances, you will find others absolutely stunning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Gould - the heir to Gould is Angela Hewitt, who is one of the…

thanks, I will totally check her out!

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#37

Post by antognini »

mastazi wrote: post #32
antognini wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point the author is not that "It's unfashionable these days to play Bach". They are saying that "It's unfashionable these days to play Bach on the piano. " The modern fashion is to play Bach on a period-appropriate instrument like a harpsichord or clavichord. The piano wasn't invented until much later so it is anachronistic to play Bach on a piano. But the disadvantage of Bach on period-appropriate instru…

I think you are getting confused between the piano in general, which existed already, and the piano in its contemporary form, which was developed later. Bach had a side job that consisted in selling pianos to rich people. > Even more damning against the “Bach hated pianos” claim is the fact that Bach went on to become an agent for Silbermann, selling his pianos in Leipzig. There’s even a receipt signed by Bach on May…

It's true that the predecessor of the modern piano existed during Bach's time (and that Bach helped to sell a few). But I would argue that it was more of a curiosity at the time. It certainly was nowhere as widespread as the harpsichord or clavichord.

At any rate the pianoforte of Bach's day sounded very different from the modern piano, so playing Bach on a modern piano is still an anachronism. (Whether that's a problem is a separate issue.)

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#38

Post by ctchocula »

Thorentis wrote: post #25

> It’s unfashionable these days to play Bach on the piano. According to who? I've played Bach to all sorts of different people, and all have appreciated it and enjoyed it. Sure, they might not listen to it in the car on the way to work (like I might) but that doesn't mean it is "unfashionable" to treat somebody to a live performance of a technically challenging piece by a master composer.

Bach is definitely unfashionable. Compared to Bach written for other instruments (Chaconne for violin or Cello Suites for cello), his solo keyboard works---Two- and Three-part Inventions or his WTC fugues---have a reputation for being polyphonal rather than emotionally moving, because piano is uniquely positioned as the instrument that allows an individual performer to exhibit counterpoint. Compared to other composers such as Chopin or Debussy, the difference in emotional response is stark.

Unless they are trained in music, the average listener has listened to monophonic music their entire life and isn't capable of appreciating the nuances of polyphonic music, so it takes a talented pianist to make Bach's music leave an impression on the listener. Absent the appeal to emotion, one must appeal to the listener at an intellectual level. I've heard the Two- and Three-Part Inventions referred to as music that would appeal to a music professor, which is not exactly drawing room fare. These two factors: (1) monophonic style used in pop music, and (2) Bach's solo keyboard works being predominantly contrapuntal rather than emotionally moving compared to his other solo instrumental work might give Bach for solo keyboard (amongst casual music audiences) a reputation for being "boring" and "unfashionable" (which I think is completely undeserved).

Exceptions of course exist such as WTC preludes, which might appeal more to an untrained listener.

For example, Prelude 8 from Book 1 WTC (one of my favourites): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFTvjRpaU38

Funny anecdote: Freeman Dyson wrote an excellent essay about Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, playing this piece. It's included in his collection of essays, Disturbing the Universe, which I'd highly recommend.

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#39

Post by kkylin »

v64 wrote: post #4

I play piano and watching videos of Gould playing is fascinating. He violates every rule your piano teacher tells you about performance, from his unusually low chair made to accommodate a back injury to his habit of singing along to tunes that was often picked up in his album recordings. I especially like this performance of Beethoven's 32 variations in C minor by him [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoWXRlw9…

Thank you, that was wonderful. Despite being a fan of Gould for man years, I had not seen this before.

Re: How to play the piano: On Glenn Gould

#40

Post by ternaryoperator »

eigenvector wrote: post #27
jancsika wrote: post #16

> After a bizarre incident at Steinway’s in New York in 1959, when one of the senior technicians (whom Gould disliked because of disagreements over piano regulation) greeted him with a rather too hard clap on the shoulder, Gould claimed major physical injury, cancelled all his engagements for six months and (unsuccessfully) sued Steinway’s for $300,000. Hm... Horowitz's tuner Franz Mohr wrote a book where IIRC he cla…

No, the tech in the infamous Steinway 'assault' incident was William Hupfer. Here's contemporary coverage of it in the New York Times: http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1960/12/07/9997... Besides being a genius, Gould was also a notorious hypochondriac.

In Gould's defense, when Steinway and their attorneys met with Gould to settle the lawsuit, they were stunned by the fact that he requested only reimbursement of his medical expenses--he made no request for damages of any kind. Steinway paid the bills and Gould continued to be a Steinway artist for many years. [All of this is described in detail in "Wondrous Strange," which is an excellent biography of Gould.]
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