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Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

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Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#31

If this is representative of press releases from universities it's no wonder that people can't tell the difference between free energy scams and real physics. Sounds like nonsense to me but the article is so badly written that it's hard to tell. In fact it is hard to be sure whether they have actually created a prototype or merely simulated it.

> If this is representative of press releases from universities If you want reporting that accurately represent science, in my experience, the university press releases are even worse than the worst mainstream shit-tier media.

It's super sad. My boss was once at the center of one of these big press release splashes at the university I worked. She said it was almost more of a burden than a boon, because the attention it attracted was almost all of the wrong kind. And among the right kind of people, she had to spend time and effort excusing the embarassing and ridiculous press release.

I wonder if universities understand that they're sometimes harming their own people with these things.

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#32
Without getting all quantum about it, it seems to work by configuring the graphene as one electrode (or both) of a capacitor. As the graphene flaps in the breeze (actually Brownian motion, I assume), the changing geometry will change the capacitance. If there is a charge on the cap, then the voltage would flap too, inversely (Q = CV). A changing voltage would tend to push about a current (i.e. charge motion). If their diodes somehow have a negligible forward voltage drop, then brief moments of higher voltage on the flappy cap would push increments of charge onto the storage cap (the one to the right of the diodes) until the storage cap voltage rose to equal the peak flappy voltage (minus the diode voltage drop). When the storage capacitance is greater than the flappy graphene capacitance, the stored energy will be greater than the tiny increments (energy = 1/2 CV^2). Then every so often the storage cap could be switched to drive some load.

So why would there be a charge in the flappy capacitor? Well, a bias voltage is applied by this battery in the circuit. Ahem, before invoking any principles of thermodynamics, I'd like to see some detailed measurements, or even careful theory, of the current out of the battery and back into the battery, particularly w.r.t. the instantaneous voltages (P = VI), to prove that the time-average power delivered by the battery is precisely zero, or at least far lower than that putatively transferred to the load (light bulb in the animation). Otherwise it's behold, we found a high-resistance path for our battery to run a light bulb.

There is some precedent for semiconductor thermal magic in the Peltier junction. It makes one end colder and the other end hotter by applying electric watts to it, with no moving parts aside from the electrons and holes recombining, or something. But nobody sees thermodynamics being violated or extended there.

But here the magic is to take away thermal energy from one place, the flappy graphene (thereby cooling it) and moving the energy to the light bulb (thereby heating it). It seems you could then use any old heat engine to extract work by letting the heat flow from the resulting hotter place back to the colder place, getting "limitless power" for free from your perpetual motion machine. Conceivably it's a sort of heat pump that gets some multiplier above the battery power. But I think the burden of proof is on the Arkansas folks to explain how this can be. If I had more energy (no pun intended, really) right now I'd try to find the paper that the press release is based on, to see if there's a little more truth there.

Meanwhile, I doubt it.

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#33

If this is representative of press releases from universities it's no wonder that people can't tell the difference between free energy scams and real physics. Sounds like nonsense to me but the article is so badly written that it's hard to tell. In fact it is hard to be sure whether they have actually created a prototype or merely simulated it.

It's kind of funny that the person writing the press release thought it was their job to just spice up the headline a little bit by claiming they'd discovered a source of unlimited clean energy.

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#34
The abstract of the paper Fluctuation-induced current from freestanding graphene [1]:

> At room temperature, micron-sized sheets of freestanding graphene are in constant motion, even in the presence of an applied bias voltage. We quantify the out-of-plane movement by collecting the displacement current using a nearby small-area metal electrode and present an Ito-Langevin model for the motion coupled to a circuit containing diodes. Numerical simulations show that the system reaches thermal equilibrium and the average rates of heat and work provided by stochastic thermodynamics tend quickly to zero. However, there is power dissipated by the load resistor, and its time average is exactly equal to the power supplied by the thermal bath. The exact power formula is similar to Nyquist's noise power formula, except that the rate of change of diode resistance significantly boosts the output power, and the movement of the graphene shifts the power spectrum to lower frequencies. We have calculated the equilibrium average of the power by asymptotic and numerical methods. Excellent agreement is found between experiment and theory.

[1] https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.102.0...

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#35
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the load resistor. Electron flux in the graphene membrane appears to be solely due to geometry. This curvature does not necessarily need to be buckled via heat energy. It could be mechanical or electrical, if I understand things correctly... More detail in this video clip with UArk's Paul Thibado: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrleMqm3HiU I think what this research opens up is the possibility of "optimal" h…

This does sound promising. Is it possible to run this process in reverse a la a heat pump to create an AC with no moving parts? Or is this purely a one way process?

Peltier coolers are probably in line with what you're suggesting, but they're not super efficient.

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#36
post #27

So apparently this is the “small device eliminates need for AC” that I see advertised everywhere! But in all seriousness, it seems this converts ambient heat (not a heat differential) directly into electricity. Therefore it must necessarily cool its surroundings by the equivalent energy extracted? So it’s a kind of air conditioner which doesn’t use electricity to move heat but rather converts heat directly to electri…

> “People may think that current flowing in a resistor causes it to heat up, but the Brownian current does not. In fact, if no current was flowing, the resistor would cool down,” Thibado explained. “What we did was reroute the current in the circuit and transform it into something useful.”

Based on this I understood that it'd indeed cool down and create a heat gradient if it wasn't doing any work, but the difference it'd create is instead used to induce a current, which means it probably wouldn't cool down as long as that potential is used in this way instead (?)

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#37
Ignoring the horrible horrible horrible title ...

This can only work if there is a temperature difference between the grapheme membrane and the load resistor (the lamp in the animations). Other wise, it breaks the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The problem is not that it breaks some remark from Feynman, the problem is that if there is no temperature difference, it breaks the Second Law of Thermodynamics and in particular an example in an explanation of Feynman.

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#39

> The idea of harvesting energy from graphene is controversial because it refutes physicist Richard Feynman’s well-known assertion that the thermal motion of atoms, known as Brownian motion, cannot do work. Thibado’s team found that at room temperature the thermal motion of graphene does in fact induce an alternating current (AC) in a circuit, an achievement thought to be impossible. So it sounds like, if this really…

If it works as described in the press release, this is a direct trip to Stockholm to pick the Nobel Prize. I can't read the research paper now.

My guess is that there is a temperature difference between the grapheme and the resistor. In that case it's a normal experiment, perhaps with some tweak, but not a groundbreaking experiment. The power generated by the device is tiny (not "unlimited"), and there are a lot of similar devices.

Sometimes the experiment is interesting in some niche (this experiment is related to tunnel microscopy) but this is totally overhyped.

Re: Physicists Build Circuit That Generates Clean, Limitless Power from Graphene

#40
post #14
post #5

Naive question, wouldn't this (converting Brownian motion into electricity) violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? (edit, this is explicitly addressed further in the article: That's an important distinction, said Thibado, because a temperature difference between the graphene and circuit, in a circuit producing power, would contradict the second law of thermodynamics. "This means that the second law of thermodynamics…

This sounds like a mangled explanation. It seems to me, somewhat naively, that the resonator must be held at a higher temperature than the rest of the circuit to produce work on the load.

I think some minuscule amount of energy is taken from the thermal bath (the environment is considered a thermal bath - you can take heat from it and it's so big its temperature won't budge), converted into electricity and then back to heat in the load resistor. They all remain in the same temperature if I'm not gravely mistaken.
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