Live data from Hacker News

What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

about.fb.com

31–40 of 129 posts

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#31
I found this press release pretty disappointing. It is very weak. This press release is like saying when the documentary about how bad McDonald is for you (Super Size me) came out, McDonald's issues a statement saying, oh but they (filmmakers) were not fair, they did not show you guys the steps we take to keep harmful bacteria from your food and ensure we don't poison you.

This whole Press release is about the "Steps" they have taken, very few of them tell us about these steps in detail or how we can verify them. There is no pledge to do better or a consequence to not meeting these goals. If feels to me that FB is mega coorp where the people in it want to do better but the machine is so much bigger than the people in it they are currently lost on how to do it without torching the whole company

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#32
> But ‘The Social Dilemma’ buries the substance in sensationalism.

This was my conclusion too. There were some genuine good parts, but most of it felt too hyped because the explanations were too flavorful and simplistic, or taken too far. It felt like I was watching The Secret or Zeitgeist.

> Rather than offer a nuanced look at technology, it gives a distorted view of how social media platforms work to create a convenient scapegoat for what are difficult and complex societal problems.

This sentence lacks the nuance that they criticize. While I think it's a fair position to state it gives a distorted view (due to simplification, for example), that doesn't mean they're creating (or intending to) create a convenient scapegoat.

> The film’s creators do not include insights from those currently working at the companies or any experts that take a different view to the narrative put forward by the film.

Well current employees have a lot to lose in being honest, if they disagree. And the documentary did have experts that had a different view that was actually telling a different story than the narrative. I was actually on the lookout for it, because I was upset with the simplistic cookie cutter bullshit it was feeding us.

---- Reacting to the points ----

1. They say they're making efforts to make responsible use possible. The issue with this is, we can't check this. So reputation and trust is all we can go on. So I'm putting this in the neutral category.

2.

> We don't sell your information to anyone.

Wasn't Cambridge Analytica a thing? If so, then I don't care if you sell or don't sell, info gets out there. It feels disingenious to put that sentence in there as a response to "you are not the product".

I agree that the mantra is nonsensical "you are the product". Uhuh, right, because it's short and sweet it must be true? Nonsense, all explanations that I've ever read that were true never devolved to mantra-like statements. IMO it's a "code smell" that something is off.

...

I'll stop here, this is getting way too long.

Long story short: Facebook is being questionable here at best, despite that I agree in general with them that The Social Dilemma is nonsense.

The incentives here are all warped :/

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Influence your behavior" seems like an over dramatic description of "show me ads".

The movie raises the question of what advertisers are paying for, and conclude it must be behavior modification. From public service announcements that smoking is bad for you to Tom Selleck endorsing reverse mortgages, it seems advertisers pay to "show me ads" believing it will alter someone's behavior at least a little. Given the scale of Facebook's data and the scale of Facebook's audience, advertisers can use Face…

"Show me ads" since the dawn of time has always been in an effort to influence behavior. Magazine ads. Newspaper ads. TV ads. This is just a different medium that much more surgical with its targeting.

The biggest danger in my opinion is how this time it's not just the ads that are changing your behavior but the platform itself.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#34

>> Instead we want to make sure we offer value to people, not just drive usage. How are you providing value to people when you show articles from the same perspective to the same person. I would value a product, if it gave me different perspectives on the same issue. I guess their definition of value is distorted. And therein, lies the problem and the reason for filter bubbles. Try logging out of facebook and then lo…

>> The overwhelming majority of content that people see on Facebook is not polarizing or even political

It's super easy to cherrypick data that backs your point. I'm sure "The Social Dilemma" did this too. If instead of looking at content, they looked at engagement (comments, likes, shares) then I think the political content would be much higher on the list.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#35

The film explains that when they say “you are the product” they mean Facebook is selling a chance to influence your behavior. It’s an interesting perspective, but this PR piece from Facebook seems to willingly misinterpret this

"Influence your behavior" seems like an over dramatic description of "show me ads".

People like to be over dramatic these days.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#36
post #31

I found this press release pretty disappointing. It is very weak. This press release is like saying when the documentary about how bad McDonald is for you (Super Size me) came out, McDonald's issues a statement saying, oh but they (filmmakers) were not fair, they did not show you guys the steps we take to keep harmful bacteria from your food and ensure we don't poison you. This whole Press release is about the "Steps…

> This whole Press release is about the "Steps" they have taken, very few of them tell us about these steps in detail or how we can verify them.

Not only that, but they seem to focus on the steps they take rather than the results they had. Sure you can take some steps to reduce addictiveness or polarization, that doesn’t mean they had an actual effect nor take away the central argument that the documentary is making.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#37
post #12

I wasn't planning on watching Social Dilemma, but seeing that it rattled FB enough to issue a "wait, let us explain why they're wrong" statement I think I will watch it. Also, fuck you Facebook. You had multiple chances to redeem yourself and start being not-so-corrosive for the society and you intentionally went out of your way to make the wrong choice every single time.

This comment breaks the site guidelines, which include: Please don't fulminate. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Maybe you don't owe Facebook better, but you owe this community better if you're commenting here.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#38

The film explains that when they say “you are the product” they mean Facebook is selling a chance to influence your behavior. It’s an interesting perspective, but this PR piece from Facebook seems to willingly misinterpret this

"Influence your behavior" seems like an over dramatic description of "show me ads".

“Show me ads” only sounds less menacing than “try to change your behavior” because we’ve become accustomed to ads for a century.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#39

The film explains that when they say “you are the product” they mean Facebook is selling a chance to influence your behavior. It’s an interesting perspective, but this PR piece from Facebook seems to willingly misinterpret this

"Influence your behavior" seems like an over dramatic description of "show me ads".

They do not just show ads. They also display content.

Existing in a filter bubble has a strong effect on your perception. Perception has a direct influence on your actions. Couple this with interfaces which are purposefully addicting ("high user engagement" is a euphemism), and you can very directly influence behavior.

The pervasiveness of smartphones means that these apps are only a few clicks away for virtually the entire world population. And worse, once these apps are installed on your phone, they relentlessly pull you back in with and endless stream of notifications.

It is not only Facebook. Applications like Reddit, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok all follow the same basic patterns.

It is not an overly dramatic description. If anything the public has been frightfully unaware of the influence that these companies can exert on the world. I am glad that this film has brought these issues into the spotlight.

Re: What “The Social Dilemma” Gets Wrong [pdf]

#40
I’ve been on FB since the 1st year and after seeing all the major changes delivered with heaps and tons of hype about how mega engagement would bring the entire world into one big kumbaya circle, I find it hilarious the PR team thought they could get away with pointing fingers at someone for having too much sensationalism instead of substance.
Post reply on HN