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China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

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Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#31

Post by reaperducer »

vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it

If I do something bad, like file for bankruptcy, it is wiped off of the "private sector credit systems" after seven years. China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances.

Another important difference is that in the West, being penalized for things like now showing up for a dinner reservation are opt-in. You choose to make a reservation through Open Table in order to get points. Part of that contract is that you will honor your reservations. Nobody forces you to use Open Table.

credit bureaus in a variety of countries have the same effect

Which Western credit bureaus are tracking charitable donations? Blood donations? The times someone plays music too loudly? The times someone throws a banana peel into the recycling bin?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#32

Post by HashingtheCode »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #6
vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

A standard US credit score system may seem to be similar, but there are some important differences: - a person has access to their file - there are ways to correct mistakes on file, should any be found - scoring algorithm is more or less known

Similar as in tomatoes are to potatoes.

As far as i know, even if you have a terrible US credit score, you can still buy a train/plane/bus ticket to travel outside of your city, you can still buy mobile phone contracts, start a business, buy property, send your children to a private school etc etc.

The SCS in China will punish the individual by restricting these things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXyzpMDtpSE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evBzPwCdeHI

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#33

Post by jacobush »

lowdose wrote: post #27
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

Maybe this system is able to make sociopaths more accountable for the suffering they cause. We have no data on people with this spectrum of mental illness because they do not report themselves. Estimations on the number of sociopaths in the wild are anywhere between 1% to 5 % of the population. If this social credit score is able to limit the damage these people can cause during their lifetime I would say the experim…

It will also make minorities more accountable for being minorities. Also known as "driving while black".

"Enemy of the State (1998)" but as mundane everyday reality, not a blockbuster movie and with your jelaous neighbours reporting you for anything and everything.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#34

Post by gumby »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #8
gumby wrote: post #5

I’m pretty sure Equifax et al aggregate this info as well (well perhaps not yet your trash-sorting) such as arrest records and probably social media activity as an option, or future option, to swizzle into credit rating.

Your credit rating doesn't affect your ability to go to a concert or buy an airline ticket.

Well, the explicitly obscure social credit system “terrorism watch list” keeps you from flying with (almost) no recourse. I’m pretty sure it will be privatized. And it’s only a matter of time before your arrest record will affect your ability to attend a concert or sporting event — this is already the case in the UK.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#35

Post by op03 »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

You give them too much credit. There is no such fine grained control. Its more like an ant hill or an endocrine system.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#36

Post by digdigdag »

How is this, in principle, different from the credit scoring system in western states? Lenders, banks, landlords, employers, insurance companies, utilities and hell even your cable company can assess the level of service rendered to you based on your score. I'm not saying China's system is identical to a FICO score -- but one would be remiss to not see the parallels in the intention of both systems.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#37

Post by disown »

rfwhyte wrote: post #29

The truly terrifying thing to me about the Chinese social credit system is that the CCP is actively trying to package and sell it to other autocratic states. They're testing it out and optimizing it on their own populace, but the eventual endgame is to sell it to a bunch of Asian, African, and Eastern European dictators and build themselves a nearly omnipotent back door to coerce and control the lives of people the w…

[flagged]

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#38

Post by mistermann »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

> From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class.

> Make the goals to get the most profit from the least investment into the work force, coerce their productivity with increasing restrictions and penalties, and you're moving towards virtual enslavement.

This seems like the polar opposite of my perception. If one looks at statistics [1], or simply spends a few hours (or years, as I have) watching China based YouTube vloggers, there seems to be an unmistakable and rapid increase of the common man's wealth and material well being. I can't really think of any observation I've experienced that contradicts this apparent trend.

What data sources are you using?

[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/china/wages

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#39

Post by ardy42 »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #30

The chinese system should be renamed to 'Social Control System' because that's what it does. It's intention is to control the masses. The problem with governments is size and reach. Governments attempt and do usually keep growing. The government ends up with laws like: https://library.municode.com/ar/little_rock/codes/code_of_or... Why does a government care if you honk a horn near a sandwich shop after 9pm? How many…

> The problem with governments is size and reach. Governments attempt and do usually keep growing. The government ends up with laws like: https://library.municode.com/ar/little_rock/codes/code_of_or...

>> Sec. 18-54. - Sounding of horns at sandwich shops.

>> No person shall sound the horn on a vehicle at any place where cold drinks or sandwiches are served after 9:00 p.m.

>> (Code 1961, § 25-74)

Governments don't go around passing weird laws like the above for no reason.

I betcha $1 that there's a good story behind that ordinance. There usually is in cases like that. Some thing with contract terms. Probably someone was doing something obnoxious, which was technically legal under then-current law. The local government did what it was supposed to do, and solved the problem (in this case, with a narrow ordinance).

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#40

Post by free_rms »

digdigdag wrote: post #36

How is this, in principle, different from the credit scoring system in western states? Lenders, banks, landlords, employers, insurance companies, utilities and hell even your cable company can assess the level of service rendered to you based on your score. I'm not saying China's system is identical to a FICO score -- but one would be remiss to not see the parallels in the intention of both systems.

A few years back, I remember a bunch of SV startups trying to invent... a social credit system... for underbanked countries without credit systems. We'll just hook up to the facebook API to find who's creditworthy.

Everyone clapped them on the back for it, maybe YC funded one or two.

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