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Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

sciencemag.org

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Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#31

Post by root_axis »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #25
root_axis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mirror-test is not even close to exhaustive with respect to conclusions about self-awareness. It is certainly conceivable that a self-aware creature could simply be incapable of understanding a mirror or that they might be otherwise indifferent to what they see in it. For example, dogs fail the mirror test, but they are obviously self-aware creatures.

> but they are obviously self-aware creatures. Is it that obvious? Mine gets scared by her own farts sometimes.

I think it's axiomatically true. If we don't consider dogs to be "self-aware" then I think the discussion becomes an issue of semantics, because dogs clearly possess an emotional intelligence that necessarily implies a kind of "self-awareness" that is common to humans.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#32

Post by klyrs »

eternalban wrote: post #27
root_axis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're definitely working in the dark, but i don't see any compelling reason to suggest that ants aren't self-aware; why wouldn't they be? What about their behavior makes you feel like they aren't?

Extreme self-abnegation.

What are your thoughts on kamikaze pilots in this regard?

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#33

Post by root_axis »

eternalban wrote: post #27
root_axis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're definitely working in the dark, but i don't see any compelling reason to suggest that ants aren't self-aware; why wouldn't they be? What about their behavior makes you feel like they aren't?

Extreme self-abnegation.

Are monks, philosophers, and soldiers not self-aware?

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#34

Post by drdeca »

root_axis wrote: post #31
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but they are obviously self-aware creatures. Is it that obvious? Mine gets scared by her own farts sometimes.

I think it's axiomatically true. If we don't consider dogs to be "self-aware" then I think the discussion becomes an issue of semantics, because dogs clearly possess an emotional intelligence that necessarily implies a kind of "self-awareness" that is common to humans.

I would think that self-aware would imply not just emotions, but having awareness of oneself, not just "of one's body", but like, being able to think about how one would react to something, or at least some things somewhat like that.

Wikipedia says "While consciousness is being aware of one's environment and body and lifestyle, self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness."

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#35

Post by the8472 »

dfischer wrote: post #29
the8472 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like critiquing science for not having all answers. Do you have a better approach?

My critique of is shaded by an irritation of within the both the "non-scientific" community that has been indoctrinated to take what "scientists" say as expert factual irrefutable statements and the "scientific" community that has become not what I'd call scientific and more close to dogma, orthodox, ideological, and or protectionist to break novel grounds. The scientific community is explicitly sanctioned by a centr…

This doesn't seem particularly helpful for the conversation here. Claiming something is self-aware because I say so or because I don't trust the state of research will hardly convince anyone. Random social media videos of animals exhibiting interesting behavior is not sufficient either, it is interesting but can be misattributed due to anthropomorphisation.

And if you want to preach about better communicating uncertainty and statistics then I am afraid you're preaching to the choir in a particularly ranty sermon.

Yes there are plenty of uncertainties, but those uncertainties cut both ways.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#36

Post by eivarv »

exo-pla-net wrote: post #21
bigpumpkin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's likely that social animals are almost all self aware. How can an individual animal manage social relations within its pack without a knowledge of self and of other selves?

I disagree. Ants are highly social, but few would ascribe them self awareness. They pursue social objectives using instinct. But pack animals? Maybe. We don't have an answer to how our own self awareness works, so we're largely working in the dark.

Why does it matter if few (or many, for that matter) ascribe them self awareness? Popularity is no measure of truth.

And who's to say what actions are "free will" (whatever that means) over instincts?

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#37

Post by eivarv »

riffraff wrote: post #12
bhk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that people tend to attribute human emotions and self-awareness to their pets, far beyond what science (or skilled pet trainers) would hold. And then there are other people that attribute these qualities and even the presence of a "soul" to plants, rocks, etc.. As far as the human "psyche" is concerned, I think it's inclined to animism.

Many years ago someone gave a talk on the ever expanding sphere of "things we recognize rights too". One of the interesting point was how we tend to humanize "evil" objects which clearly have no intent: being angry at a mouse that does not work, some software that crashes, or feeling the printer hates us. We do seems to have animism as a built-in mental device.

The human mind is prone to certain types of errors, for sure. Pareidolia and apophenia are other interesting examples.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#38

Post by Dylan16807 »

clickok wrote: post #22
rtx wrote: post #20

I always feel a bit disappointed when science catches up to traditional or observational knowledge. It feels like so much opportunity being lost.

In the words of John von Neumann, there's a lot more that's known than is proved. It's often frustratingly difficult to go from the known to the proven; still, just because something's not proved doesn't mean that scientists are ignoring it.

Also sometimes what we "know" is in fact wrong.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#39

Post by exo-pla-net »

root_axis wrote: post #26
exo-pla-net wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Ants are highly social, but few would ascribe them self awareness. They pursue social objectives using instinct. But pack animals? Maybe. We don't have an answer to how our own self awareness works, so we're largely working in the dark.

We're definitely working in the dark, but i don't see any compelling reason to suggest that ants aren't self-aware; why wouldn't they be? What about their behavior makes you feel like they aren't?

The compelling reason for me is the mirror test, and what you can infer from it. The tiniest bit of self-awareness lets you pass the mirror test, as toddlers demonstrate. Apes pass, elephants pass, and magpies pass. Monkeys fail. What's different about monkeys? They have smaller, simpler brains. If a monkey by all appearances has no concept of self, an ant with 0.008% as many neurons assuredly doesn't.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#40

Post by liability »

root_axis wrote: post #24
exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

The mirror-test is not even close to exhaustive with respect to conclusions about self-awareness. It is certainly conceivable that a self-aware creature could simply be incapable of understanding a mirror or that they might be otherwise indifferent to what they see in it. For example, dogs fail the mirror test, but they are obviously self-aware creatures.

Cats supposedly fail the mirror test, but I think they're just disinterested. There are a lot of videos of cats being shown live video of themselves and their owners, with the owner's face modified to look like a cat. In many of these the startled cat immediately turns around to look at their owner, seemingly indicating an awareness that the video they were being shown contained themselves and that the weird cat-like human creature seen in the video was behind them.

Compilation of such reactions that was posted on HN a fee days ago: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Jto2peSOLac

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