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The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

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Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#31

Post by scottlocklin »

breakbread wrote: post #10
_jal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to laugh about it, and the emphasis on the sillier aspects are, I think, intentional. They got up to some really nasty stuff. Anyone not familiar with the program would do well to spend a couple minutes on the summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra And of course it served as the template for how to deal with the Abu Ghraib fallout: Given the CIA's purposeful destruction of most records, it…

One of the crazier projects https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax

That's nothing; look at what they did in Canada:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_experiments

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#32

Post by ganzuul »

_zzaw wrote: post #15
HillRat wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except MKULTRA was part of CIA’s “family jewels” —- indeed, it was so infamous that a cover letter to the DCI suggested they not familiarize themselves with the program in order to maintain plausible deniability. And MKULTRA was only part of a set of equally concerning operations, such as its progenitors, BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE, or Project OFTEN, which collaborated with pharmaceutical firms to uncover drugs too risky…

I have to wonder about the extent to which the CIA really believed this was possible, or if it was more along the lines of "well sure, it sounds batshit, but the Soviets are doing it and if there really is something to it, we don't want to be behind in the game." When one has infinite funding and no ethical oversight, the pit really is bottomless.

It would be poetically just if people who constantly lie lost the ability to discern the truth.

If someone has a slightly more rigorous justification for the notion I would be happy to hear it.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#33

Post by Pelic4n »

aSockPuppeteer wrote: post #17
api wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The remote viewing stuff was a bit silly, but the MKUltra stuff included a lot of very unethical human experimentation. These two things are not really in the same category in terms of scandal.

There was actually some truth to remote viewing working in very specific scenarios. Operationally is a different story though. The studies, Ganzfeld experiments, said once you learn if you were right or not, your skill improves a little. For some reason young students from Julliard had the highest scores. The test was 4 possible pictures iirc and you must guess the picture another person is looking at. In a meta-anal…

This is absolutely crazy.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#34

Post by api »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #23
hnmonkey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an absolute bombshell of a story and I'd guess that the vast majority of people have never heard of it but would be horrified if they did. It sounds like they even blackmailed the people.

If you think that's horrifying, let me introduce you to Dr. Jolly West and the Jimmy Shaver case: https://theintercept.com/2019/11/24/cia-mkultra-louis-jolyon... Highly recommend Tom O'Neill's 'CHAOS' for some of the new details he dug up on MKULTRA. The rumor mill has it that he is working on a new book exploring its potential ties to the RFK assassination, the Grateful Dead, and the Jonestown massacre. On the subje…

The fringes of this material gets wild and significantly less credible really fast. It is very important to stick to the hard facts when dealing with government wrongdoing or you open yourself up to the “conspiracy theory” thought stopper charge.

Wild conspiracy theories help cover up actual conspiracy and malfeasance.

The stuff you are referencing is definitely not impossible, but it’s unproven and likely unprovable and is mixed in with a lot of trash. We have enough documented stuff about the government meddling with the counterculture (e.g. COINTELPRO) that we don’t need to make shit up or chase phantoms.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#35

Post by api »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #24
_jal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to laugh about it, and the emphasis on the sillier aspects are, I think, intentional. They got up to some really nasty stuff. Anyone not familiar with the program would do well to spend a couple minutes on the summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra And of course it served as the template for how to deal with the Abu Ghraib fallout: Given the CIA's purposeful destruction of most records, it…

'The Men Who Stare at Goats' points out that the whole "haha they're making them listen to the Barney song, that drives me crazy when my kids make me put it on too!" was probably a cover for more sinister interrogation or even mind control techniques being explored with music blasted at prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Surely just a coincidence that the cult leader of ISIS was at that same prison ....

I can certainly see someone being radicalized to the point of delusional psychosis by being victimized in this way.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#36

Post by amanaplanacanal »

browserface wrote: post #29
Fnoord wrote: post #2

> The Black Vault’s biggest score to date may be its material related to MKUltra, a top-secret CIA project that involved dozens of mind-control experiments on US citizens and others. [..] Why would this be the biggest score (title doesn't reflect it)? Was this the first documentation regarding MKULTRA/ARTICHOKE/BLUEBIRD? For those interesting in CIA's attempts to explore New Age (e.g. apply "remote viewing") I can re…

Rather than watching the goats movie which is pretty bullshit, search the CIA library for "CENTER LANE SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM" which was the DIA's remote viewing, remote influence program utilizing psychoenergetics. It resulted in at least "3 intelligence community firsts", was rated by Joint Chiefs of Staff as producing intelligence qualitatively the same as other sources, and (even tho it continued long after) unti…

But what is a plausible mechanism of action for this? I think that’s why people assume it is bullshit.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#37

Post by HillRat »

_zzaw wrote: post #15
HillRat wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except MKULTRA was part of CIA’s “family jewels” —- indeed, it was so infamous that a cover letter to the DCI suggested they not familiarize themselves with the program in order to maintain plausible deniability. And MKULTRA was only part of a set of equally concerning operations, such as its progenitors, BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE, or Project OFTEN, which collaborated with pharmaceutical firms to uncover drugs too risky…

I have to wonder about the extent to which the CIA really believed this was possible, or if it was more along the lines of "well sure, it sounds batshit, but the Soviets are doing it and if there really is something to it, we don't want to be behind in the game." When one has infinite funding and no ethical oversight, the pit really is bottomless.

Sidney Gottlieb, the chemist (not to say poisoner) who oversaw a lot of CIA’s dirty work, must have believed in what he was doing, because he lived long enough to regret it (and turn to advocating pacifism and good works).

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#38

Post by AndrewBissell »

HillRat wrote: post #37
_zzaw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to wonder about the extent to which the CIA really believed this was possible, or if it was more along the lines of "well sure, it sounds batshit, but the Soviets are doing it and if there really is something to it, we don't want to be behind in the game." When one has infinite funding and no ethical oversight, the pit really is bottomless.

Sidney Gottlieb, the chemist (not to say poisoner) who oversaw a lot of CIA’s dirty work, must have believed in what he was doing, because he lived long enough to regret it (and turn to advocating pacifism and good works).

Very hard to view this as some kind of genuine development of a conscience, given that he never corrected the perjury he committed during the Congressional testimony for which he was granted blanket immunity for his role in MKULTRA.

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#39

Post by f02a »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #36
browserface wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than watching the goats movie which is pretty bullshit, search the CIA library for "CENTER LANE SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM" which was the DIA's remote viewing, remote influence program utilizing psychoenergetics. It resulted in at least "3 intelligence community firsts", was rated by Joint Chiefs of Staff as producing intelligence qualitatively the same as other sources, and (even tho it continued long after) unti…

But what is a plausible mechanism of action for this? I think that’s why people assume it is bullshit.

Speaking as someone who has seen evidence that remove viewing actually works, put simply: we don't know. But it certainly implies that we don't know everything about the universe and how it works.

I would also point out that any non-obvious technical advancement wouldn't have a plausible mechanism of action, until we learn enough to figure it out.

It's a puzzle I would certainly like to figure out. But it's also a puzzle with far-reaching implications for both physics and society. It would have massive implications for privacy, and even calls free will into question. (If it's possible to remote-view the future, is that just one possible future, or is it /the/ predetermined future?).

You know what? On second thought, even having seen it work, I would be more comfortable staying in denial and assuming it's bullshit. (And THAT is why all this is classified.)

Re: The Black Vault: A FOIA obsessive’s UFO-filled empire

#40

Post by AndrewBissell »

api wrote: post #34
AndrewBissell wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that's horrifying, let me introduce you to Dr. Jolly West and the Jimmy Shaver case: https://theintercept.com/2019/11/24/cia-mkultra-louis-jolyon... Highly recommend Tom O'Neill's 'CHAOS' for some of the new details he dug up on MKULTRA. The rumor mill has it that he is working on a new book exploring its potential ties to the RFK assassination, the Grateful Dead, and the Jonestown massacre. On the subje…

The fringes of this material gets wild and significantly less credible really fast. It is very important to stick to the hard facts when dealing with government wrongdoing or you open yourself up to the “conspiracy theory” thought stopper charge. Wild conspiracy theories help cover up actual conspiracy and malfeasance. The stuff you are referencing is definitely not impossible, but it’s unproven and likely unprovable…

> Wild conspiracy theories help cover up actual conspiracy and malfeasance.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you believe the principal actors in the publicly known and acknowledged aspects of MKULTRA were not held to account because of 'wild conspiracy theories' which had little traction outside fringe newsletters in the 1970s when MKULTRA came to some semblance of public light? Do you believe the general public would be more aware and educated about these abuses if not for the existence of those theories?

There's nothing outside hard facts in any of what Tom O'Neill has printed, so you can save your charges that I am "making shit up" or "chasing phantoms." The idea that he is exploring connections to the other historical events I mentioned is so far just rumor, but rumor to which O'Neill himself has lent some credence on his own Twitter page: https://twitter.com/chaosmansonbook/status/12990091441424179... https://twitter.com/chaosmansonbook/status/12990005775952486...

Everyone already knows the standard narrative line that "MKULTRA was a temporary, discontinued, and largely unsuccessful program, which like COINTELPRO was ended (we promise!) when documentary evidence of it was brought to light." I don't see how informed, fact-based speculation that there may be more to it than that does anything to 'cover up' or absolve the people involved.

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