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Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

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Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unfair to only blame developers for this bad culture in our industry. At every layer of the stack the same things happen. At my local government they reformed child benefits and needed a new IT system to handle it, of-course we ended up with the over-engineered enterprise architecture of micro-services running on kubernetes, communicating over an event bus with CQRS, continuous integration and continuous…

micro services on kubernetes is hardly over engineering things. its lightweight, fast and is easy to implement with.

Is your real name Lillian Hellman? Regrettably, in this instance, I am not Mary McCarthy.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#32

As a developer, I've found that the Agile methodology is great for weeding out bullshitters. A decently run sprint planning session with a retrospective at the end will highlight who didn't actually do anything. The killer feature is that these people volunteered the amount of effort for the work and then have to explain why nothing got done. They eventually leave the team once they realise they've been discovered.

Having worked at many places with many bullshitters who have successfully conned the Agile process for weeks (sometimes months), I'd have to disagree. (Indeed, I have done it once myself when I was trying to leave but they were dragging their feet about signing the paperwork.)

The only way I've seen people con it, is where the people doing the tasks are also trusted with scoping and estimating it. You need to have multiple people "sign off" on or buy into the scoping and estimation process. E.g. One person does an "investigation" task (e.g. Look into feasibility / difficulty of x). This should be somebody with enough experience to give a good rough estimate. Their estimate can them be discussed at the next sprint planning session, and everybody should agree on the final estimate (story points, or size label, however you do your sprints).

Then, if the bullshitter gets to the end of the sprint and says they didn't complete a 1-2 day task in 10 days, you can start asking why. They do this consistently across 2-3 sprints, you know something is up. Assume they're more junior than their job title and try giving them easier tasks. Still not getting much done? They're a bullshitter. Fire them / raise with their manager.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#33
In his seminal essay-turned-book On Bullshit,Frankfurt (2005) ... Other philosophers have since expanded on his work, most notably G. A. Cohen in his essay “Deeper into Bullshit”(Cohen 2002)...

Time travel or me not understanding what those numbers mean ?

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#34
post #6
post #4

I've seen too many bullshitters in the software industry - people whose technical capabilities extend only as far as their ability to convince non-technical managers that they know what the fuck they're talking about. I've seen these people be promoted to positions where they can do serious damage, no longer a mere developer not knowing what the hell you're meant to be able to do - but a lead developer crippling an e…

For every really-faking-it-until-they-make-it junior dev there's a goldbricking veteran spending 80% of company time on a side pursuit.

If their 20% justifies their salary, which it does by the fact they've not been fired, then I don't see your point.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked at many places with many bullshitters who have successfully conned the Agile process for weeks (sometimes months), I'd have to disagree. (Indeed, I have done it once myself when I was trying to leave but they were dragging their feet about signing the paperwork.)

The only way I've seen people con it, is where the people doing the tasks are also trusted with scoping and estimating it. You need to have multiple people "sign off" on or buy into the scoping and estimation process. E.g. One person does an "investigation" task (e.g. Look into feasibility / difficulty of x). This should be somebody with enough experience to give a good rough estimate. Their estimate can them be disc…

> Then, if the bullshitter gets to the end of the sprint and says they didn't complete a 1-2 day task in 10 days, you can start asking why. They do this consistently across 2-3 sprints, you know something is up. Assume they're more junior than their job title and try giving them easier tasks. Still not getting much done? They're a bullshitter. Fire them / raise with their manager.

Another contributing cause of this can be that they have gotten into the habit of accepting other people's bullshit.

Example:

Bob says "I don't think I understand enough about X to do task T well".

Sue, (partly worried what people would think of her if she negotiated similar time for learning) feels great discomfort hearing Bob's self-deprecating* statement. Motivated to escape this discomfort, she 'helpfully' tells him that he is just suffering from impostor syndrome.

(Bullshit: It might be true, but the function to produce the statement did not take real-world evidence as a parameter)

Bob mostly-believes this and doesn't feel confident that it is wise to allocate his time to learn X. He should 'just get it done'.

Bob starts working on task T and feels frustrated and confused. Bob starts asking questions on slack that anyone with a solid understanding of X would know are irrelevant. He does not get helpful answers.

Bob, hearing that he's trying to 'understand the universe' doesn't see a way forward but to put more time into task T. He stays up late working on it ineffectively.

Bob goes into standup having accomplished very little and gained little understanding. Bob's duty to his team and his health is to confidently state this truth. Bob is sleep-deprived and ashamed of his lack of progress. He feels motivated to escape this discomfort. He says the task will be done by standup tomorrow.

(Bullshit: It might be true, but the function to produce the statement did not take real-world evidence as a parameter)

Bob stays up late again. Bob accomplishes little. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLBO7L5G2DQ

10 days later, Bob still does not really understand how to make progress on his task.

----------------

Bob gets fired shortly thereafter. He has multiple hypotheses for what he should have done better, but none he is confident in. At his next job, he is on hyper-vigilant alert for a similar situation. When he encounters it, the memory of getting fired and the uncertainty of what to do makes him feel deeply uncomfortable. Discomfort-avoidance leads him to get on hackernews rather than focus on his work.

----------------

* "I have gaps in my skills and am capable of learning" is a healthy problem to have. "I am unqualified to judge when I need more understanding of something to move forward" is an unhealthy problem.

Thus, we should exercise a duty of care to the truth when telling people that they have Impostor Syndrome.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#36

As a developer, I've found that the Agile methodology is great for weeding out bullshitters. A decently run sprint planning session with a retrospective at the end will highlight who didn't actually do anything. The killer feature is that these people volunteered the amount of effort for the work and then have to explain why nothing got done. They eventually leave the team once they realise they've been discovered.

Or maybe they just leave because of people like you who think Agile is like the Thunderdome of software development rather than a tool to manage a team.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#37
post #5

`On Bullshit` is one of my favorite things I've ever read but it's frustrating that this paper simultaneously cites `On Bullshit` while immediately defining bullshit in a way that does not conform almost at all with the `On Bullshit` This article starts out by defining bullshitters and therefore bullshit as: "‘Bullshitters’ are individuals who claim knowledge or expertise in an area where they actually have little ex…

I was disappointed by Frankfurt's "On Bullshit". I felt he spent 9/10th of the book on academically defining different aspects of bullshit, and only getting into the details of the effects and ways to deal with bullshit in the last few pages. Basically it was a book which carved out a boundary for his definition of "bullshit", which made it read like a philosophy text with little application in the real world.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way I've seen people con it, is where the people doing the tasks are also trusted with scoping and estimating it. You need to have multiple people "sign off" on or buy into the scoping and estimation process. E.g. One person does an "investigation" task (e.g. Look into feasibility / difficulty of x). This should be somebody with enough experience to give a good rough estimate. Their estimate can them be disc…

> Then, if the bullshitter gets to the end of the sprint and says they didn't complete a 1-2 day task in 10 days, you can start asking why. They do this consistently across 2-3 sprints, you know something is up. Assume they're more junior than their job title and try giving them easier tasks. Still not getting much done? They're a bullshitter. Fire them / raise with their manager. Another contributing cause of this c…

To be honest this seems more like a Bob problem than a Sue problem. "Just get on with it" (or some variation thereof, whether reference to imposter syndrome, stiff upper lip, etc) is thrown about all the time in all workplaces. If you are genuinely struggling or don't know what to do then it is your professional responsibility to make the right people know about it.

If Bob did stress this very strongly with Sue, and Sue was the person in charge of allocating tasks, then yes of course Sue is to blame. Giving people tasks they can't do is bad.

Perhaps Sue thinks that Bob should be able to figure it out within the 10 days and doesn't need more than that to both investigate and complete the task? If there is a large knowledge imbalance and Sue knows a lot more about the task than Bob then maybe she should take on that task instead.

So many variables!

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#39

I think the elephant in the room for this study is the high bullshit scores of immigrants. If you're a non-native language speaker and someone asks if you understand something, you're probably used to having to figure it out offline - but you might say "yes" anyway, for a myriad of reasons. Something I find disingenuous in this study is the failure to follow up on competency. "High bullshit index" individuals claim w…

A shame to see this comment greyed out for defending immigrants.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? (2019) [pdf]

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, if the bullshitter gets to the end of the sprint and says they didn't complete a 1-2 day task in 10 days, you can start asking why. They do this consistently across 2-3 sprints, you know something is up. Assume they're more junior than their job title and try giving them easier tasks. Still not getting much done? They're a bullshitter. Fire them / raise with their manager. Another contributing cause of this c…

To be honest this seems more like a Bob problem than a Sue problem. "Just get on with it" (or some variation thereof, whether reference to imposter syndrome, stiff upper lip, etc) is thrown about all the time in all workplaces. If you are genuinely struggling or don't know what to do then it is your professional responsibility to make the right people know about it. If Bob did stress this very strongly with Sue, and…

yep, it is a complex multifactor problem.

> make the right people know about it.

You cannot _make_ someone else know something. Even if you to grab onto their skull and scream into their ear, it would do no good. (I assume. I have not tested this.) You can only say what you believe with whatever rhetorical skill you can muster. They can still choose to trust you with something you say you don't know how to do.

Whether the subcomponent is physical or psychological, sometimes the only way to credibly communicate about a risk is through the medium of catastrophic failure.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/researchernews/rn_...

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