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Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

newscientist.com

31–40 of 295 posts

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#31
post #20
post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

>usually has positive effects in the long run Yeah, citation needed for that. Because "people often have meltdowns and need professional therapy" isn't really encouraging.

Having an emotional breakdown is normal if you've been repressing and become overwhelmed.

It can be re-traumatizing if it happens in an unfavorable time/place, and I'm not saying it's even necessary for healing.

But, it's not a "side-effect" of meditation, and it suggests that meditation does exactly what it says on the tin. It's confronting thoughts and feelings that you find dangerous enough to suppress. These are the things causing neuroses and unhealthy behavior patterns in your daily life. Dealing with them isn't always going to be enjoyable or even safe.

So, similarly to taking psychedelics: manage your dosage, and if you want to go deep make sure you're somewhere that you feel safe and supported.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#32
post #26

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). Thi…

Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend.

On the other hand, I met my now-wife in the depression ward, which in the "active" phase right before my admission I visualized and wished for quite often.

I don't regret the 2-3 months of active ego dissolution phase, life has never been more beautiful and strangely peaceful and jarring at the same time.

However, I did lose my job, my apartment and almost permanently lost my sanity as well, but now in hindsight it looks like it was all for the better.

Nevertheless I don't think you should force something like this (like I very much did), the consequences to internal and external reality can be absolutely dramatic and I've preferred to live in peaceful ignorance since then... save for the short moments of.. remembering. Everything and nothing at once.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#33
post #3

This is probably oversimplified, but it does make some sense. Some people are happily trotting about in their objectively miserable lives. Sit them down and let them think on it, and they just might realize how empty their lives are and how little control they have over their situation. I've always been very "mindful" and depending on your inclination to cynicism, that inevitably means finding out that life is what i…

Thinking about every aspect of my life in a very deep and logical way is what got me depressed. And what got me out of it was being busy enough that I didn't have time for that.

Yeah, I agree and I don’t understand the parent comment. As far as I know meditation is about NOT ruminating on thoughts, so a happy person surely shouldn’t become depressed by doing it. Sure, for most people, being told to sit in silence and reflect will make them unhappy. What the heck is the benefit of that? A lot of the work I do with CBT is to NOT reflect and ruminate and think about every aspect of my life and every decision I make. It works. I’m happier. Why would I want to get unhappy again because someone tells me it’s good for me? If that is the ‘benefit’ of meditation, I’ll pass!

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#34

I would be interested in finding out who funded the study and wouldn't be surprised with big-pharma behind it. I have been meditating for 7 years now. I would still consider myself an intermediate level meditator. It has literally re-programmed my mind. Having said that, I read the Pali Canon and follow instructions from Buddhist teachers all over the world.

Not everything negative about something you enjoy immediately has to have some kind of scheme or conspiracy behind it.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#35
post #20
post #7

I've been practicing meditation for several years now. The phenomenon described in the article is very obvious to every practitioner - it can happen that for some time you will feel worse (actually I'm surprised that it's only 8%). It is related to psychological mechanisms of repression, which is weakened during meditation practices. That is why during serious meditation retreats (like 10 days vipassana) some people…

>usually has positive effects in the long run Yeah, citation needed for that. Because "people often have meltdowns and need professional therapy" isn't really encouraging.

I’m not a clinical psychologist, and every time I try to read beyond the first screen of this article on my phone I get some weird ad about Google giving away phones...

My own experience with meditation, guided and encouraged by my therapist when I did seek professional help, does match what the title of the article says at a minimum. But here’s the rub: I went to him to try to figure out and resolve the mental state I’d gotten into!

Very deliberate mindful meditation helped me observe the thoughts-below-the-thoughts from a somewhat neutral perspective (sometimes called “observing the river”). What I saw was profoundly uncomfortable! Some of the thoughts underlying my behaviour were just my current headspace (other companies had commercialized work similar to my grad school research while I was still researching it), and some of it was negative thought patterns I’d adopted in my early teens in response to some stressors.

I worked through those and came to peace with them. It wasn’t a pretty couple of months, but I’m a dramatically different and better person because of it.

There should probably be a giant disclaimer and some intake interviews for these 10-day retreats. If you’re going and expecting that it’s just going to be a nice opportunity to chill... you’re probably not going to be ready to actually inspect the shit that comes out of your brain when you give it a chance. And... the people who snap at these retreats likely would have benefitted from professional help anyway; spending time alone with their thoughts in that setting just brought that fact to the surface.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#36
Meditation is a process to calm the mind. Make it more lucid and reduce thoughts.

It's a tool to discover the inner self, one of the first steps in self realization, as per Hindu scriptures.

It has been studied for millennia and it's methods fine tuned.

The reason for meditating is not to improve productivity, solve depression / anxiety issues, and all the issues related to modern living.

It is a first step towards God Realization.

But why is it used so widely for the above mentioned reasons?

- The initial stages of meditation bring about a calm and peace. Many people find health benefits to such a process. It might as well be true.

Meditation is supposed to be done and progressed under a realized guru. It's not a vocational course that someone takes and becomes an expert in it.It is not a tool to solve anxiety and depression. It is not a tool to improve the life we experience with this body. It is a tool to discover our true nature.

Of course you are going to get results that fall into a wide spectrum if you do it wrongly, under no proper guidance and with no clarity as to it's true purpose.

You cannot expect a person with depression and anxiety to sit alone in a room and meditate and not expect an aggravation in such thoughts.

To live a happy and healthy life, Hinduism promotes a way of life for the householder (one who is married and has a family)

- Get up early. - Exercise (This includes preliminary forms of Hatha Yoga) - Eat healthy food - Spend time with family - Teach your kids - Avoid vices - Have a healthy sex life - Spend some time contemplating the true nature of the world. Just thinking, no meditation, no process, no nothing. - Sleep well - Have a good circle of friends and keep good relations with extended family, to share your joys and sorrows.

In India, for every one of the above activity, there are a myriad of books, anecdotes, stories, proverbs, etc. A householder is never told to do meditation or try to be in peace by such methods. To glue the society together, there are festivals, rituals, cultural activities that are to be followed both by the individual and the society. Some by men, some by women, some by rulers, some by priests, etc.

Meditation and other related yogic methods are only taught to a person who has developed a certain aversion to the ways of this world and wants to advance spiritually. That too, a qualified guru will test him in all aspects and only then start training in meditation and yoga. Until then, no such methods are taught.

Western nations have misused and misconstrued everything about Yoga and Meditation, and then put out such articles.

Unfortunate.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#37

I would be interested in finding out who funded the study and wouldn't be surprised with big-pharma behind it. I have been meditating for 7 years now. I would still consider myself an intermediate level meditator. It has literally re-programmed my mind. Having said that, I read the Pali Canon and follow instructions from Buddhist teachers all over the world.

> It has literally re-programmed my mind How so? What’s different? I’ve never been able to get a clear explanation of the benefit of meditation.

The problem stems from the fact that the initial translations of the Pali Canon to western languages comes from German monks who understood Pali well but could not find appropriate words in western languages to capture the semantics. Mindfulness technique was used for at least 2000-3000 years before Buddha. So words used in the Pali canon have an etymology associated with them that cannot be easily captured in western languages.

"Mindfulness" is a best-effort translation of the word "Sati". What the word "Sati" really captures is "REMEMBERING to pay attention to what is happening in the mind at all times". A trained mind develops this automatic memory to constantly check and introspect the current state of the mind. Based on whether the current state is wholesome (leading to happiness) the "Sati" helps refocus the mind on wholesome thoughts (this is right effort of noble 8 fold path). Over time two things happen: you get intimately familiar with the workings of the mind and you know how to "manage" your thoughts without using "will" or "force" to repress the thoughts into the subconscious. This is an exercise in finesse rather than force. The gist of it is that "ignorance of reality" (that there is an "I") is the root cause of suffering in living beings. But to grasp that at the "intuitive" level (and not just intellectual) requires years of training and you start to see the fruits along the way.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#38
post #31
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>usually has positive effects in the long run Yeah, citation needed for that. Because "people often have meltdowns and need professional therapy" isn't really encouraging.

Having an emotional breakdown is normal if you've been repressing and become overwhelmed. It can be re-traumatizing if it happens in an unfavorable time/place, and I'm not saying it's even necessary for healing. But, it's not a "side-effect" of meditation, and it suggests that meditation does exactly what it says on the tin. It's confronting thoughts and feelings that you find dangerous enough to suppress. These are…

Hah, when I was writing my sibling comment, I too had thought about psychedelics and the parallels there. I haven’t experienced those at all yet, mostly because the opportunities I’ve had to try haven’t felt like the right “set and setting”. Or maybe I’m just scared of what I’ll see :D

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#39
This is the equivalent of saying exercise is bad because "People who engage in physical activities sometimes experience unwanted muscle soreness and joint pain". Dredging up old repressed emotions is one of the first things I learned about meditation, and you're supposed to learn to deal with them instead of keeping them buried in your head forever.

Re: Mindfulness and meditation can worsen depression and anxiety

#40

I would be interested in finding out who funded the study and wouldn't be surprised with big-pharma behind it. I have been meditating for 7 years now. I would still consider myself an intermediate level meditator. It has literally re-programmed my mind. Having said that, I read the Pali Canon and follow instructions from Buddhist teachers all over the world.

> It has literally re-programmed my mind How so? What’s different? I’ve never been able to get a clear explanation of the benefit of meditation.

Do you buy into the criticism of our phones and social media being addictive and harmful to our ability to maintain focus and concentration? If so, then there must be a way to build strength in the opposite direction, right? For some (including me), meditation seems to help.

I used the guided sessions from the free Oak app and a lot of the beginner stuff is about just sitting and focusing on one thing (usually the breath). An early skill is to recognize when a distracting thought enters your mind. You acknowledge it and return to focusing on the breath. I use this when I'm working. If I suddenly remember that I'm supposed to do something later in the week or start to wonder if the SR-71 could ever achieve a trajectory with escape velocity, I write it down and come back to it later.

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