It's worth keeping in mind that the travelling carpenters are a souvenir from dark times in Europe, when economic progress remained extremely slow because craftsmen were evaluated by their belonging to a guild and would not compete.
It's worth noting that those 'dark times' were periods of perfectly ordinary economic growth compared to the rest of the world and all the millenniums previous. Comparing those times to the Industrial Revolution that came shortly after is a little unfair - no tradition or souvenir compares well.
The traveling German carpenters
31–40 of 47 posts
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's worth noting that those 'dark times' were periods of perfectly ordinary economic growth compared to the rest of the world and all the millenniums previous. Comparing those times to the Industrial Revolution that came shortly after is a little unfair - no tradition or souvenir compares well.
Eh, no. The first explosion of efficiency and economic prosperity was in Roman times, when there was peace in much of Europe and cities flourished, complete with sanitation systems, elaborate transportation networks etcetera. When that crumbled, city states took over, and economic life was once again dictated by the whims of rulers who in reality depended on keeping the ruling classes of the cities in their empire ha…
Economic activity centered on agriculture where efficiency increases were minuscule. Because of this economic activity did not grow much.
See this diagram for an idea of just how little growth there was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_Capita_1-2003_A....
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#33Did anyone else read that title as "time traveling German carpenters?" Does the internet make this less relevant for those in the software field?
The "Walz" is not for building primary skills (i.e. in our case Software Development or in their case Carpentry). It is assumed that carpenters doing it are already quite skilled in their respective profession. The reason of the "Walz" is to teach self reliance, soft skills and to round out ones primary skills by being exposed to practices of their craft that have evolved/developed differently from those they learned…
Not just originally, for some professions you're still not allowed to have your own business without your "Meister" degree. Never understood why this included hairdressers…
Totally agree with your assessment of the web subsection of the IT profession. And it's quite splintered, with the "young turks" against academia against the enterprise, with plenty of small areas of expertise vanishing in the cracks. It does get a bit better if the forum of discussion is sufficiently abstract and spread over different niches (e.g. programming languages that transcend specific fandoms).
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#34This article talks only about journeymen and women who are truly exotic and rare but it doesn't really emphasize that vocational training — the alternative to college — still is alive and well in Germany. You usually don't got to college if you want to become a hairdresser or a mechatronic engineer. After they finish school, the apprentices work three or four days per week at some company and go to a vocational schoo…
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#35This article talks only about journeymen and women who are truly exotic and rare but it doesn't really emphasize that vocational training — the alternative to college — still is alive and well in Germany. You usually don't got to college if you want to become a hairdresser or a mechatronic engineer. After they finish school, the apprentices work three or four days per week at some company and go to a vocational schoo…
Here's some of their marketing material:
DHBW possesses the unique characteristic of consistently and deliberately combining academic study with applied learning in the professional world. With this strategy, DHBW provides a route to sought-after academic qualifications while enabling students to gain extensive practical experience. This foundation equips DHBW students and graduates to take on challenging tasks early in their professional careers, helping to launch them on successful career paths.
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#36My good friend is a journeyman, and I always wished there was a US equivalent, especially in the realm of software engineering. I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy coding with brilliant programmers and traveling around the country. Anecdotally speaking: My friend has a "wunderstick", which is a hand made walking stick. When we go into bars in Germany, he taps it, and the bartender gives us free drinks. Before we lea…
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#37I want to take a van and travel North America working on the startup and talking to our userbase and customers. What could be better from a community management perspective than to get a visit personally from the founders. I think it says a lot more than some silly badge you can display on your profile.
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#38Corey Haines has done this with software development. In a similar fashion working for room and board. Which turns out to be a great deal for the company and I assume great experience for Corey.
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's worth noting that those 'dark times' were periods of perfectly ordinary economic growth compared to the rest of the world and all the millenniums previous. Comparing those times to the Industrial Revolution that came shortly after is a little unfair - no tradition or souvenir compares well.
Eh, no. The first explosion of efficiency and economic prosperity was in Roman times, when there was peace in much of Europe and cities flourished, complete with sanitation systems, elaborate transportation networks etcetera. When that crumbled, city states took over, and economic life was once again dictated by the whims of rulers who in reality depended on keeping the ruling classes of the cities in their empire ha…
> There was stagnation and in many fields enormous regression until the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution (when freedom brought back the drive for progress).
Really? Again, your characterizations are unfair and draw on the tired old Whig myths of the Dark Ages and medieval periods. I like the Enlightenment & Industrial Revolution quite well, but I feel no need to exaggerate prior history. The periods of the guilds were no worse than most periods and better than some; from Gregory Clark:
> Figure 12.11 shows the estimated productivity level in book production by decade from the 1470s to the 1860s, calculated as the ratio between the wage of building craftsmen and the price of a book of standard characteristics.9 The rate of productivity growth from the 1460s to the 1560s was 2.3 percent per year, as fast as that for cotton textiles in the Industrial Revolution. In the next hundred years productivity grew more slowly, at only 0.6 percent per year. But this was still faster than the rate seen in most of the economy during the Industrial Revolution. From the 1660s to the 1860s there were apparently few further productivity gains in printing. But all this increase in the efficiency of book production had no appreciable impact on the measured efficiency of the economy before the 1660s, since books were such a tiny share of expenditures for most of the preindustrial era. In the first decade of the sixteenth century the average annual output of books was about twenty thousand volumes, about 0.02 percent of English national income. By the 1550s this had risen to a hundred thousand volumes, but because of the falling prices of books that was still only 0.11 percent of national income.
> Books were not the only goods that saw substantial efficiency advances in the years before 1800 yet had little or no impact on the overall efficiency of the economy because they represented such a small share of aggregate expenditure. Table 12.8 shows the price of nails by fifty-year periods, compared with wages, and the implied efficiency in nail production. A pound of nails in the early thirteenth century cost 3.3 pence, while a day’s wage for a craftsman was 2.4 pence. Thus a pound of nails cost more than a day’s wage. By the years 1850-69 the day wage had increased about seventeenfold, to 40 pence per day. But nail prices were only 3.2 pence per pound, so a craftsman could buy more than 12 pounds of nails with his day’s wage.10
When were the guilds shattered? By the 1700s, I think most would say, yet:
> Figure 10.2 shows, for example, income per capita in England by decade from the 1260s to the 2000s. After six hundred years of stasis, income has increased nearly tenfold since 1800. It continues its inexorable rise. Note, however, that though the conventional date for the onset of the Industrial Revolution in Britain is given as the 1760s there is little sign of rapid growth of income per person until the decade of the 1860s.
> The years around 1300, before the onset of the plague in England in 1349, do show lower wages than in 1800. But wages in the early thirteenth century are close to their level in 1800. It should be stressed that this wage index incorporates the arrival of new goods such as sugar, pepper, raisins, tea, coffee, and tobacco. Even allowing for the gains in real income from the decline in prices of all these new goods in the years 1500–1800, workers in the late Middle Ages were still much richer. They received extra rations of beef and beer as part of their wages, which more than covered any absence of tea or sugar.
While we're on the topic, the rulers were not nearly so economically despotic as your caricature presents them:
> However, the difficulties of collecting the tithe in kind, particularly on animal products, led to tithe owners collecting at a much lower rate. Tithe collections before 1800 averaged only 11 percent of land rents or 4 percent of farm output. So tithe income in preindustrial England was likely less than 4 percent of national income.10 Thus even allowing for the additional taxing power of the church, all taxes collected in preindustrial England before the Glorious Revolution were typically less than 6 percent of income.
And wages could change considerably for the better, even before the Industrial Revolution (a unique occurrence in world history, I will remind you, for whose absence in their time period the medievals you like to condemn are not responsible):
> Referring, for example, to figure 3.1, living standards of English laborers in 1450 were three times as high as in 1300, and nearly double the levels of 1800. This variation in living standards would seem to be explained mostly by variation in mortality rates at given levels of income. Thus the explanation for the very high living standards of Europeans in the years 1350–1600 was undoubtedly the arrival of the Black Death in 1347. Its first onslaught in the years 1347–49 carried away 30–50 percent of the population of Europe. But the plague continued to strike periodically thereafter for the next three hundred years. In England between 1351 and 1485 there were thirty plague outbreaks. As late as 1604, for example, the city of York lost at least a quarter of its population in one year to plague. Paris had twenty-two plague epidemics from 1348 to 1596.6
And that stagnation & regression? Well, the Roman Empire which only loosely controlled part of England must have done one hell of a job, all things considered:
> England in 1200–1800 had an income per person as high as, or higher than, large areas of the modern world. Countries with an aggregate population of more than 700 million people in the year 2000 had incomes below the average of preindustrial England. Another billion people in India had average incomes only 10 percent above those in England before the Industrial Revolution. Some modern countries are dramatically poorer. Hundreds of millions of Africans now live on less than 40 percent of the income of preindustrial England.
Re: The traveling German carpenters
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh, no. The first explosion of efficiency and economic prosperity was in Roman times, when there was peace in much of Europe and cities flourished, complete with sanitation systems, elaborate transportation networks etcetera. When that crumbled, city states took over, and economic life was once again dictated by the whims of rulers who in reality depended on keeping the ruling classes of the cities in their empire ha…
Exactly. Economic activity centered on agriculture where efficiency increases were minuscule. Because of this economic activity did not grow much. See this diagram for an idea of just how little growth there was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_Capita_1-2003_A....
But you are right that the annual growth due to efficiency was relatively small:
> Indeed generations of English schoolchildren have read, probably with bored bemusement, of the exploits of such supposedly heroic innovators as Jethro Tull (author in 1733 of An Essay on Horse-Hoeing Husbandry), “Turnip” Townsend, and Arthur Young. But this agricultural revolution is a myth, created by historians who vastly overestimated the gains in output from English agriculture in these years.4 The productivity growth rate in agriculture was instead modest, at 0.27 percent per year, lower than for the economy as a whole. But even these modest gains represented considerably faster productivity growth than had been typical over the years 1200–1800. Figure 12.4, for example, shows wheat yields per seed sown in England from 1211 to 1453. Medieval agriculture seems to have been totally static over hundreds of years.
(Clark remarks elsewhere that agricultural productivity growth is more like 1 or 2%, and the Chinese had easily double England's agriculture efficiency, but because farming is a war against entropy, with land being damaged and local pests adapting etc., the net productivity growth is small.)
Economic growth came mostly from population growth and exploiting additional natural resources.