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What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

nytimes.com

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Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#31

Post by pinkfoot »

threeseed wrote: post #30
pinkfoot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can your company legally tell me how many FISA warrants and NSL letters they received in my FOIA request? Of course not.

FOIA obviously doesn't apply to everything. But in the case of FISA it is overseen by an independent judiciary and all of the deliberations and controversies were widely covered by the independent press. Not to mention independent organisations like ACLU, EFF etc. who have been very vocal about trying to abolish the FISA process entirely. Again none of this would remotely happen in China. We've seen first hand what h…

> FOIA obviously doesn't apply to everything

And that there is the problem from which no argument about checks and balances can recover.

Which is why real democracies don't allow secret courts.

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#32

Post by pbhjpbhj »

threeseed wrote: post #16
arbuge wrote: post #6

No. Banning TikTok at most suggests that the current US administration no longer believes in a global internet. That administration might be out of office as soon as January 2021. Edit: Comment submitted before title was changed. Title was originally: "Banning TikTok suggests that the US no longer believes in a global internet."

Data protection and privacy is far more important than a global internet. And you need a country with a strong and independent judiciary and press in order for that to happen. China has neither. And people who think this is exclusive a Trump, right-wing position are seriously misguided. It's bi-partisan and will definitely continue under a Biden presidency as well.

>strong and independent judiciary and press //

Are you suggesting USA has that?

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#33

Post by close04 »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #26
close04 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a totalitarian surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable about American children Are non-Chinese surveillance dragnets (Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, etc.) capturing every bit of data imaginable about every nationality's children or adults more palatable? Just like China, the US is doing whatever it can to maintain its superpower status, and its allies and enemies in check. And it's obvi…

The scale and nature of what is captured is COMPLETELY different, and American laws about data protection are completely different. America has clear rules in place before stored data can be accessed by the state, with few exceptions. China has a blanket policy of supplying all data to the state at its request, and there is no independent judiciary or other means of appealing this process. Instead of Whataboutism, co…

> Instead of Whataboutism

Don't deflect. I'm not the one using whataboutism, you are: "US surveillance is ok because the scale is smaller than the Chinese one". And even that's debatable, US has global reach in collecting data.

As a European the "scale and nature of what is captured" by the US via big-tech companies (or the NSA) is "COMPLETELY different" from what happens in the EU. EU "laws about data protection are completely different". EU "has clear rules in place before stored data can be accessed by the state, with few exceptions". So I'll put it this way: for a European the US surveillance state looks more or less the same as how the Chinese surveillance state might look to the US.

So let me rephrase it: for me the US is what China is for you. You are doing to others what China is doing to you. But when you're doing it you find a strong sense of righteousness in it and anyone who doesn't agree with you is the enemy.

Many also hold this narrow view that between 2 things you must agree with one and disagree with the other. A common misconception that if you reject one option you must embrace the other. Please understand, I can disagree just fine with both what China and the US are doing. I'm giving you an outside perspective of the issue which might better help you understand how perception of something changes once you realize the baseline doesn't have to be you, it can actually be higher. You'll probably agree with me that when it comes to surveillance and privacy the EU is probably better positioned to make a moral judgement.

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#34

Post by _y5hn »

unangst wrote: post #24

Trump’s fallen for one of the two classic blunders! The first being never put self above the American people but only slightly lesser known: never go in against the TikTok hive mind when RE-ELECTION is on the line!

Maybe his ML strategists see a way without winning the election?

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#35

Post by meragrin_ »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #27
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #11

It's got nothing to do with "global internet", it's about a totalitarian surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable about American children. Tik Tok is unique in the granularity and sheer scope of what it captures, and it is stored on Chinese servers that are legally compelled to make any and all data available to the CCP with no oversight or warrants or anything of the sort.

>every bit of data imaginable about American children // TikTok is pretty inane, what do you think they can find out that's detrimental; how do you think the data will be used that is malicious?

I'm sure it can be used to narrow down candidates for espionage. It is just more data points to figure out who and what levers need to be pull to provide the necessary incentives.

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#36

Post by tremon »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #11

It's got nothing to do with "global internet", it's about a totalitarian surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable about American children. Tik Tok is unique in the granularity and sheer scope of what it captures, and it is stored on Chinese servers that are legally compelled to make any and all data available to the CCP with no oversight or warrants or anything of the sort.

Yes, "Chinese" and "CCP" being the operative words there. The US has shown itself to be quite enamoured with the rest of that sentence.

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#37

Post by Wolfenstein98k »

close04 wrote: post #33
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scale and nature of what is captured is COMPLETELY different, and American laws about data protection are completely different. America has clear rules in place before stored data can be accessed by the state, with few exceptions. China has a blanket policy of supplying all data to the state at its request, and there is no independent judiciary or other means of appealing this process. Instead of Whataboutism, co…

> Instead of Whataboutism Don't deflect. I'm not the one using whataboutism, you are: "US surveillance is ok because the scale is smaller than the Chinese one". And even that's debatable, US has global reach in collecting data. As a European the "scale and nature of what is captured" by the US via big-tech companies (or the NSA) is "COMPLETELY different" from what happens in the EU. EU "laws about data protection are…

I didn't "deflect", the topic was Chinese surveillance and censorship.

PS I'm not American or in America.

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#38

Post by meragrin_ »

close04 wrote: post #17
Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #11

It's got nothing to do with "global internet", it's about a totalitarian surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable about American children. Tik Tok is unique in the granularity and sheer scope of what it captures, and it is stored on Chinese servers that are legally compelled to make any and all data available to the CCP with no oversight or warrants or anything of the sort.

> a totalitarian surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable about American children Are non-Chinese surveillance dragnets (Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, etc.) capturing every bit of data imaginable about every nationality's children or adults more palatable? Just like China, the US is doing whatever it can to maintain its superpower status, and its allies and enemies in check. And it's obvi…

> the US is doing whatever it can to maintain its superpower status

Um, not in the slightest. There is no united front in the US regarding foreign relations. Trump is left to his own devices without the backing of Congress. That is far far from "doing whatever it can".

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#39

Post by close04 »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #37
close04 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of Whataboutism Don't deflect. I'm not the one using whataboutism, you are: "US surveillance is ok because the scale is smaller than the Chinese one". And even that's debatable, US has global reach in collecting data. As a European the "scale and nature of what is captured" by the US via big-tech companies (or the NSA) is "COMPLETELY different" from what happens in the EU. EU "laws about data protection are…

I didn't "deflect", the topic was Chinese surveillance and censorship. PS I'm not American or in America.

> PS I'm not American or in America.

The point was generic so I'd say it stands. And the particular point was that most views are relative to where you're looking from but everybody states them in very absolute terms. You set your baseline at what you're comfortable with and take that as absolute reference. I was just trying to show you that that's not the case.

Putting it more simply, if you support the absolute idea that TikTok is bad, and their US operations should be forced to sell and be under US control, then the idea that Facebook or Google are bad and their EU operations should be forced to sell and be under EU control is just as true. Very few people see it like this as such the logic of the discussion is fractured. Without reconciling that fracture first every discussion looks like this [0].

[0] https://pics.onsizzle.com/our-blessed-homeland-their-barbaro...

Re: What Does Trump Have Against TikTok?

#40

Post by meragrin_ »

PedroBatista wrote: post #22
makomk wrote: post #5

Forget TikTok and the US for a moment - just given the actions of China, the EU, and India, is there even such a thing as a global internet anymore?

Why didn't you start with the actions of the US and US companies? Did you forgot about the many FB and Google scandals over the years? or you just don't care because they are your team? The Internet never was "Global", it was always soft and sometimes hard controlled by the US. Now that other countries are applying the same recipe and "winning" all of a sudden that's a problem. And it really is a problem, but it was…

Aside from the recent targeting of Chinese companies, what policies has the US put into place which specifically targets internet companies only and makes it difficult for foreign companies to have US customers?
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