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Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

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31–40 of 68 posts

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#31
One key feature for human success was the adaptability of behavioural patterns. Anything you find that's "hardwired" or heavily biased towards must have been pretty universally positive to neutral along the way. In light of that it would be more surprising than not to find very much in the way of those.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#32
post #21

Rather than expecting people to standardise beliefs, perhaps it would be easier to identify a set of practices that make it easier for people with different "moralities" to coexist? https://xkcd.com/927/

Most moralities are not mutually compatible. For instance, if my morality is individualism, and your morality is collectivism, we can't coexist without one side being forced by the other to compromise their morality. BTW, I upvoted your comment.

> For instance, if my morality is individualism, and your morality is collectivism, we can't coexist without one side being forced by the other to compromise their morality.

Individualism and Collectivism aren't moral frameworks. You could have both an individualist and a collectivist both be deontologists, utilitarians, or some other framework.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost. China believes US is the bully, but I've never heard of anybody believing the US unfairly gained.

Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.

Mainstream chinese views are probably going to be tricky as China is rather dominated by it's dictatorial leader who I think is still a fan of Mao. The new yorker had quite a good article on him https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/born-red

The Chinese not under the CCP dictatorship in places like Taiwan, Singapore or the US mostly seem hard working democratic and easy going.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#35
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend any sources (selfishly I'll say preferably in a european language) for relatively mainstream chinese viewpoints? One might hope HN would provide a non-siloed venue including (one would guess, self-selecting for relatively pro-western) chinese geeks, but as far as I've seen, those who openly identify as such are discouraged.

This sounds crazy, but /r/sino on reddit is pretty much as close as you'll get to mainstream Chinese political thought in English. There's a very good chance many of the people there are legitimate shills for the government, but I mean, those are the state-sponsored and permitted opinions that they're presenting. People going against the grain either don't talk or get silenced. From an American perspective, the stuff…

It does sound crazy but that's mainly because it'd be crazy for mainstream Chinese opinions to be discussed in English. Maybe r/china.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#36
post #8

> One question you confront if you’re arguing for a single planetary moral philosophy: Which moral philosophy should we use? The Golden Rule is practically universal. I'm surprised it doesn't get a mention. I'm partial to Hillel's version: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others—this is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule > It’s true that Greene is…

This is more of a side remark, not a direct reply to your comment.

I'm a utilitarian for general policy making, especially when statistical data is at play, but I cannot understand utilitarians who believe that all of morality should be utilitarian. Even elaborate versions are flawed, even e.g. Harsanyi's utilitarianism where you are supposed not to know who you are in society (similar to Rawl's "veil of ignorance" but formally worked out in his framework).

It's way too easy to find counter-examples that do not match our moral preconception and it takes a huge leap of faith to just ignore these. For example, it is easy to find real-world and fictitious scenarios in which utilitarianism would tell us to torture or murder someone, yet existing laws and traded morality strongly go against these recommendations.

Another huge problem is that utilitarians rarely take into account human agency, but we do that all the time in our lives. There is a gigantic difference between risking your own life and telling someone else to risk his or her life. Most utilitarians don't even try to model these differences, and I personally suspect that there could be an impossibility theorem hiding in versions of utilitarianism that attempt to take agency formally into account. (Not that I have investigated this in detail yet, it's just a hunch.)

The biggest flaw of utilitarianism is my view that it oversimplifies values. It is often based on the assumption of value monism but in reality we base our judgments on multiple value categories that are often in conflict with each other.

Related to that, all utilitarians I know of suggest compensatory decision methods but there are many good reasons why we should sometimes use noncompensatory outranking methods. The idea is crazy that you can murder someone as long as that allows you to give n people $1 each, yet it is implied by any compensatory value aggregation method.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#37
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most moralities are not mutually compatible. For instance, if my morality is individualism, and your morality is collectivism, we can't coexist without one side being forced by the other to compromise their morality. BTW, I upvoted your comment.

> For instance, if my morality is individualism, and your morality is collectivism, we can't coexist without one side being forced by the other to compromise their morality. Individualism and Collectivism aren't moral frameworks. You could have both an individualist and a collectivist both be deontologists, utilitarians, or some other framework.

I would be willing to argue in favor of my definitions over yours, but I don't think it's germane to the point I was making.

I could re-formulate my example using your terminology quite easily.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most moralities are not mutually compatible. For instance, if my morality is individualism, and your morality is collectivism, we can't coexist without one side being forced by the other to compromise their morality. BTW, I upvoted your comment.

What if[1] both sides compromise their morality? True, it's cutting off hydra heads to replace one big problem (should we all be individualist or all be collectivist?) with many many small ones (is this particular problem better addressed with individualistic solutions or collectivistic solutions?) but I'd say expecting that one big problem to be solved would be inhuman. [1] this hypothetical is not very. As far as I…

If either side is forced to compromise, they simply feel that the system is immoral, and they seek to change it.

You can see this, for instance, in American politics. There is no agreement to compromise in general. When compromises happen, they are temporary tactical maneuvers. Afterwards, both sides will continue to fight for what they believe to be moral.

(This example is a bit outdated, but just imagine American politics in 1980. I'm not sure both sides today believe in moral principles.)

The idea of a meta system where you judge each case individually is not a compromise between individualism and collectivism, it's a new morality that is neither one. Basically, it's pragmatism.

Pragmatism tends not to work in the long run, because there isn't any good way to judge each individual case without reference to more general principles. The need for more general principles is why you have moral systems (other than pragmatism) in the first place.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#39
post #24
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarianism seems to follow pretty directly from individualism, which most people reject. (I actually support it.) Individualism is directly comparable to utilitarianism. The rational people in our society should be debating individualism vs. collectivism vs. utilitarianism (possibly vs. others). That is in lieu of discussing the higher-level political instantiations of these things (e.g. libertarianism vs. social…

> Individualism is directly comparable to utilitarianism. I am not so sure about this...

Your being unsure doesn't make me feel unsure.

Re: Why Can't We All Just Get Along? Uncertain Biological Basis of Morality (2013)

#40
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Freedom' is not a framework for morality? I will judge you as a bad person for not saving the child in the pond while able to do so.

But would you ‘punish’ them for not saving the child?

Yes. "Non-assistance à personne en danger" is a crime in France punishable by up to 5 years in prison. Personally I'm absolutely fine with people being punished for not helping save someones life.

However this must only be if doing so does not pose any risk to the helper. See [0] for a list of countries with similar laws.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue#Regulations_by_...

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