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Curry Before Columbus

contingentmagazine.org

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Re: Curry Before Columbus

#31

Post by bregma »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #18
DanBC wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To say it’s colonial is a bit of a stretch. It’s simply a word chosen by a group of outsiders to categorize something they didn’t know much about. A group of British outsiders who were in India because of the British Empire?

There’s absolutely nothing uniquely colonial about coming up with words to describe things that are new to you. It’s simply a result of one culture coming into contact with another. To say using language to describe new things is colonial is frankly ridiculous.

But it brings a certain je ne sais quoi to the sturm und drang of everyday life for the hoi polloi.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#32

Post by brownbat »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #13
twoslide wrote: post #7

I've spent about 3 years in India, through a combination of work and family, and rarely see anything called "curry" on menus. Part of what this author seems to be getting at is that "curry" reflects a colonial viewpoint that homogenizes groups outsite the west. Thus, Indians, Thais and Japanese food has "curries" (even though these curries are very different from one another). In contrast Hungarians have "Goulash."

To say it’s colonial is a bit of a stretch. It’s simply a word chosen by a group of outsiders to categorize something they didn’t know much about. The more relevant criticism of the word boils down to the facts that it doesn’t really mean anything to Indians, and that it’s meaning is so poorly defined that it barely means anything at all. The word can be used to refer to pretty much any Indian food, which is simply a…

Hmm, what makes for a meaningful broad food category word?

Dumplings range from pierogies to xiaolongbao, sandwiches include monte cristos and cheesesteaks and fluffernutters, soup includes vichyssoise and miso and samgyetang.

Why do those words work, if they do?

Stepping sideways a bit... in New Delhi, menu names shift in a subtle way with the prominence of vegetarianism. In the UK or US, you might order a dish like "chicken with seasonal vegetables." In Delhi it's often reversed, they'll specify the exact meatless dish, Malai Kofta or Palak Paneer, but just say the side dish is "non-veg" without specifying whatever meat. That slight shift in emphasis really underscores the endless variety of things you can eat beyond meat, it makes plain how the generic Western conception of a meal through classic French courses can be incredibly narrow. However we ultimately come down on "curry," emphasizing meatless dishes seems like an example of food language that probably should have been heavily exported and hungrily adopted by the rest of the world. Even if you're not a vegetarian, treating meatless dishes as first-class citizens seems to add enormous diversity to any cuisine, and a ton more satisfaction in the eating.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#33

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

vishnugupta wrote: post #28
patrickaljord wrote: post #16

I've lived in Peru which also has a very spicy cuisine (many chilis come from the Andes). However, you'd be surprised at the amount of locals who confessed to me they didn't like food that is too spicy (they like it mildly spiced, or white people spiced as the article says) or spicy at all. It wouldn't surprise me if these two combined would represent 50% of the population. Could be the same in India.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

Hotness is relative though: they may not "dial it up" by Indian standards, but chili still makes its way into almost everything. A Russian colleague of mine visiting Delhi, not generally regarded as a hotbed of hotness, found virtually everything except dal makhani inedibly spicy -- because she was used to Russian food, where chilis traditionally don't feature at all.

India is also one of the few places I've been to where chilis are regularly used for breakfast dishes and even drinks like aam ka panna (spicy green mango juice).

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#34

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

twoslide wrote: post #7

I've spent about 3 years in India, through a combination of work and family, and rarely see anything called "curry" on menus. Part of what this author seems to be getting at is that "curry" reflects a colonial viewpoint that homogenizes groups outsite the west. Thus, Indians, Thais and Japanese food has "curries" (even though these curries are very different from one another). In contrast Hungarians have "Goulash."

Well, if you're talking about cultural homogenization, the curry-like thick stew you call "goulash" is actually pörkölt in Hungary. The original gulyas is a paprika-flavored soup, and it's considered an entirely different dish (eaten with a spoon instead of a fork etc).

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#35

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

55555 wrote: post #20
twoslide wrote: post #7

I've spent about 3 years in India, through a combination of work and family, and rarely see anything called "curry" on menus. Part of what this author seems to be getting at is that "curry" reflects a colonial viewpoint that homogenizes groups outsite the west. Thus, Indians, Thais and Japanese food has "curries" (even though these curries are very different from one another). In contrast Hungarians have "Goulash."

idk. in Thai, the name for each curry is literally the color or flavor of the curry plus the word "curry", like how we (Europeans and Americans) mostly do with sandwiches and soups. This is self-inflicted but I hesitate to use that word as it overstates the graveness.

The Thai word is แกง kaeng, which is etymologically unrelated to English or Tamil, and encompasses a range of dishes varying from what we'd call curries (the famous red, green etc) to distinctly soup-like dishes like kaeng khae.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaeng_khae

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#36

Post by throwaway0a5e »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #33
vishnugupta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

Hotness is relative though: they may not "dial it up" by Indian standards, but chili still makes its way into almost everything. A Russian colleague of mine visiting Delhi, not generally regarded as a hotbed of hotness, found virtually everything except dal makhani inedibly spicy -- because she was used to Russian food, where chilis traditionally don't feature at all. India is also one of the few places I've been to…

Sure but did she find it spicy as in "having copious amounts of spice" or spicy as "a taste similar to food that is of a high temperature" or spicy as in "off-gassing something that irritates one's nasal passages" (I don't really consider this last one "spicy" or "hot" but many people do so I'm including it)?

To reply that "hotness is relative" without clarifying which usage of the word you mean or implying that your friend in the anecdote even made that clarification is exactly what the person you are replying to is complaining about.

This limitation of colloquial English where the word "spicy" is overloaded to refer to all three axis of "spicy" at the same time and hot is also (though less frequently) overloaded in the same manner is exactly what we're discussing.

You can have something that's not very "hot" be very "spicy" on one of the other two axis. Try eating a tablespoon of cinnamon or that Chinese mustard that comes with takeout.

European food that is "spicy" on one axis but nearly zero on the other two is rare hence why this overloading exists and isn't really a problem when discussing food from anywhere that doesn't have a rainy season.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#37

Post by sajithdilshan »

As Sri Lankans, "Curry" for us would be a dish made by mixing a variety of powdered spices with coconut milk and made into a sauce. If this sauce is cooked along with chicken it's called chicken curry and so on. But it has to be a dish made out of coconut milk and spices.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#38

Post by bogomipz »

Indeed the versatile tomato could almost be seen historically as a calling card from the Portuguese. In Brazil one can eat Moquecas which are a spicy tomato-based stew which sometimes resemble the the spicy fish curries in the South of India. And in the US red chowder which is often inexplicably called "Manhattan chowder" is actually Rhode Island clam chowder, Rhode Island being a state with a large Portuguese population. And in Portugal itself Refogado is tomato sauce that forms the basis of many wonderful stews, soups and rice dishes there.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#39

Post by phonypc »

vishnugupta wrote: post #28
patrickaljord wrote: post #16

I've lived in Peru which also has a very spicy cuisine (many chilis come from the Andes). However, you'd be surprised at the amount of locals who confessed to me they didn't like food that is too spicy (they like it mildly spiced, or white people spiced as the article says) or spicy at all. It wouldn't surprise me if these two combined would represent 50% of the population. Could be the same in India.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

In my experience, "spicy" refers almost exclusively to chili pepper, with the sensation you get from black pepper, mustard or horseradish being edge cases.

If something is flavored with other spices, it's "spiced." e.g. "pumpkin (pie) spiced latte" or "jerk spiced."

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#40

Post by bogomipz »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #33
vishnugupta wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

Hotness is relative though: they may not "dial it up" by Indian standards, but chili still makes its way into almost everything. A Russian colleague of mine visiting Delhi, not generally regarded as a hotbed of hotness, found virtually everything except dal makhani inedibly spicy -- because she was used to Russian food, where chilis traditionally don't feature at all. India is also one of the few places I've been to…

No, food can be spicy without being hot. The OPs point I believe is that hot and spicy are often incorrectly used interchangeably. Dishes with cinnamon, cardamon, cloves, nutmeg, star anise, cardomom could all be considered "spicy" but without a component that specifically adds heat(chili seeds, wasabi, horseradish, tobasco) they would not be hot.

There are also many chili peppers that are sweet and mild - Ancho Chiles, Poblanos, Aji Panca being examples. There are also many Indian regional cuisines that are spicy but not hot - Punjabi and West Bengal come to mind.

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