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Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

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Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#31

Post by stove »

mac01021 wrote: post #22
stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

This sounds like what most internships are intended to be? How much does it cost to employ one of these apprentices?

Internships are generally thought of as something you do during college (summers or otherwise). Most CS grads would scoff at getting an "internship" after graduating. Internships are also very structured and generally involve working on a specific project within a technical team (I know they're all different).

The apprentice role, the way I've been pitching it at least, is different. This is a role where you join an engineering org and learn the product by QAing it, join technical discussions and help out by taking notes for the team, show off your communication skills by documenting new features and, big picture, you find ways to add value to the team in whatever ways they need. Over time, the bugs fixed get bigger and the person can bite off small features, etc.

The problem is that companies _want_ to hire new grads (even bootcamp grads) but don't feel comfortable paying SWE rates for someone who hasn't worked as a SWE (often rightfully so). The comp for this is equivalent to a QA eng but has a clear path towards being an entry-level SWE (3-6 months maximum). If after 3-6 months it's not clear if the person can add value as an engineer then it's clearly not a good fit.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#32

Post by bovermyer »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

This is an interesting approach. My concern would be that companies too often consider their senior engineers to be purely technical and set them to work on "the hard problems," rather than intentionally setting aside part of their days for mentorship, exploration, and thought leadership.

That culture shift is going to be difficult for organizations that don't already embrace it. It's not something you can quantify easily for an executive board.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#33

Post by kemiller2002 »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

I like your approach, in fact several people when I started development truly believed that the first 2 years or so, you were only supposed to fix bugs and things like that.

The one problem I see with the approach, and this is an issue with the company not your idea, is that they don't have people to train entry level developers. Most of the senior people I've met are incapable of doing it. They lack real expertise or an ability to effectively communicate and deal with people, or they are simply burned out from it. I've seen a number of places where the senior person is tasked with doing that and it takes up all of the person's time. They get punished for being promoted to that role. Heck I can say that I did for a while too. I took a lower position so I could write code and not deal with all of the politics and stress of leading people.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#34

Post by grugagag »

Afton wrote: post #21
grugagag wrote: post #15

It is true, and not that I am trying to be dishonest myself but I am not the same person while taking an interview. It's a sad that we can't be honest or humble but in this system we have to sell ourselves, fake enthusiasm for the hiring company is a must, do whatever it takes to pass the interview then think later if we take the position or not. If not, somebody else with the same capability or or less will snatch t…

Someone always suggests this. The issue is that if you did this, 95% of the candidates that would agree to this kind of setup would be the kind you didn't want. If I'm sitting on 2 offers, one is a hire and one is a "Let's see how this works out after 2 weeks of work", I'm going to take the first one. And that says nothing for the necessary benefits question in the states, where changing jobs often involves expensive…

We don't know for sure and it's hard to know how this works. What's obvious is that the current system is broken and we need a replacement of some sort. Being able to try a company and see whether they like me and whether I like them and the type of projects I am supposed to work would be a major factor in finding the right marriage. We take jobs for the salary tag and quite often we do whatever we have to do to continue getting that nice paycheck but we're not happy with the work we do.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#35

Post by closeparen »

flerchin wrote: post #30
stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

I don't know how to find them, and leetcode and interview puzzles clearly aren't it. However, we've all worked with folks that get way more done than others. We've also worked with people that are a net negative for company. Your paid internship only kinda works at the entry level, and doesn't fix that the filter is broken for mid and senior level.

At mid and senior level, those engineers' peers know who they are. I know we're culturally allergic to using reputation/personal experiences in hiring, but the information is there if you really want it.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#36

Post by Frost1x »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Most skilled professions provide some sort of apprenticeship track where you balance some mundane tasks with more complex tasks working with skilled professionals in the discipline to learn the trade better. You're not paid at industry high rates initially but provided a reasonable timeline for full competitive pay employment into the profession.

New and young surgeons don't start out day one on the job after six years or so expected to perform a successful open heart surgery, like software engineers are essentially expected to do. You also don't have civil engineers designing full dams or bridges on day one of their job after their bachelors or masters.

Software on the other hand thinks that for some reason, you transition from student to expert in the blink of an eye or can simply pick up what you need in a few weeks. It's completely unrealistic and businesses need to realize the value and necessity of apprenticeships and mentoring.

The problem with this though is that technology is so diverse (now more than ever) that a certain amount of skill you learn at a business is going to be non-transferable as opposed to other professions where their craft is mostly constant.

This means employees are a little less interested in these commitments because it can tie their skillsets to a specific employer if the employer isn't keeping with popular industry trends. It's also a cost employers and employees often don't want to pay in a world where employer/employee loyalty is non-existent. I think for apprenticeships to work, they need to provide transferable skills/knowledge and or provide some basis of loyalty and long term commitment goals between an employer and employee. Both of these seem like incredible obstacles in the current development climate.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#37

Post by grugagag »

tartoran wrote: post #17
grugagag wrote: post #15

It is true, and not that I am trying to be dishonest myself but I am not the same person while taking an interview. It's a sad that we can't be honest or humble but in this system we have to sell ourselves, fake enthusiasm for the hiring company is a must, do whatever it takes to pass the interview then think later if we take the position or not. If not, somebody else with the same capability or or less will snatch t…

How would a trial period work?

Work on a sample project, sample team for 2 weeks. See if you like the work and the company sees if they like you. This would only work if it were a widely accepted standard practice.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#38

Post by stove »

q845712 wrote: post #25
stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

at the moment the comment immediately below this is advising folks to find an internship, and in many ways that's what you're describing - a role with a limited timeline and a low minimum bar, but within which some people will be able to demonstrate abilities and promise far beyond that minimum. It's reasonable, but it doesn't always work out. One of the larger heartbreaks of my professional mentorship time was bring…

As someone who is regularly helping companies improve the hiring process, I can say with absolute certainty that companies _do_ get dinged for "only hiring candidates who sail through whiteboard-algorithms questions". Companies know that these are not indicators of success and that they lead to uniform teams with homogenous backgrounds.

I will also say that crafting real world "on the job style" interview problems is growing steam, as it should be!

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#39

Post by smichel17 »

hellcow wrote: post #8
kanox wrote: post #3

> What’s the best way to test if someone can do a particular job well? Get them to carry out tasks that are part of the job. See if they can do what they say they can do. It’s much harder for someone to lie and mislead an interviewer during actual work than during an interview. Using competency tests for a blinded interview process is also possible—interviewers could look at depersonalized test results to make unbias…

> All these "competency tests" are good for is catching blatant lying. Is this a serious problem? Of the people I interview that claim they have years of experience, mastery over multiple languages, and expertise in various frameworks, a solid 80% or more can't pass fizz-buzz in any language they choose.

Claims made on resume or in person? On the seeking side, I've felt pressure to put every technology I've used even in passing on my resume, to satisfy "buzzword bingo" and get through the initial screen, but in an interview I would give a (truthful) answer along the lines of "I don't have a ton of experience, but I know the basics; enough to be confident that I can quickly pick up whatever else I need to learn on the job."
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