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Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

arstechnica.com

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Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#31

Post by fxtentacle »

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

I don't get your point.

The talks are mainly about an additional 5% in taxes on the European profits of Facebook, Google, Apple, Netflix, or Amazon.

How does a small tax increase for highly profitable companies get into the way of standing together against China?

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#32

Post by fxtentacle »

noir-york wrote: post #30
Youden wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation c…

For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#33

Post by Youden »

noir-york wrote: post #30
Youden wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation c…

Those are some reasons for "against China" but how about "with the US"?

The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries?

Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#34

Post by catalogia »

paulsutter wrote: post #27
mamon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian economy is weak, agreed, but militarily they are still the only significant threat to US global dominance. China's military is much weaker in comparison.

China is a vastly bigger consideration. If China decides to invade Taiwan the US could lose access to most semiconductors. China’s military is developing rapidly. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-0...

If Russia were so inclined (I don't think they are and don't see why they would be) they could turn the Island of Taiwan into a pile of gravel on the floor of the China Sea. They have several thousand nuclear warheads with the means to deliver them; more than enough to overwhelm any extant ABM system.

For that reason if for no other, I think an American conflict with China is more likely than a conflict with Russia. China still has hundreds of nukes too, which is hundreds too many, but that's many times less than what Russia has.

To be clear, a direct war between any three of these countries would be a stupid, horrible idea.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#35

Post by Proven »

Hamuko wrote: post #24
smabie wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with that? Countries need to compete just like corporations. Small countries need someway to compete for global talent, and low taxes are a good incentive.

Apple has 137,000 employees of which 80,000 are in the United States and 22,000 are in Europe, and of those 6,000 in Ireland. However, 64% of Apple's sales are (or at least were in 2017) outside the US, which then get funneled to Ireland, despite only housing like 4.3% of Apple's global employees. They're just shifting money, not talent. Money which is then taxed at a very low rate (Apple International had an effecti…

Oh yeah?

Can you guessestimate for us how many employees would Apple have, or how much more (or less) would they be making if Apple had to pay 10 times as much tax?

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#36

Post by LatteLazy »

Youden wrote: post #23
LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

It's a fair question.

I don't think the US (or the EU) can change Chinese policies on a list of issues alone. At least not without a tonne of backlash at home over the economic results. So the EU (/US) (plus a list of othets) either need to unite on those issues or accept them happening.

The issues I'm thinking about are: Hong Kong, freedoms in wider China, treatment of minorities, coronavirus and the recent clashes in India (I don't want to take sides, I just want two nuclear powers to stop shooting at each other). You may disagree with one or more of these issues. But I'd be surprised if you think nothing on this list warrents at least some international pressure?

I'm more than happy to admit that none of the places I've listed are perfect. And we all have bones to pick with each other. But right now we're squabbling over very little while China sets up camps and deployed troops...

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#37

Post by NicoJuicy »

Youden wrote: post #23
LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

Better question: Why would Europe/Canada partner with the US now, under Trump.

They will do so when someone more trustworthy appears, but that is not the case currently.

You can't get trust, if you just take all pre-existing agreements and throw it out of the window.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#38

Post by noir-york »

fxtentacle wrote: post #32
noir-york wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation c…

For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.

I was replying to the point about why EU and the US should form an alliance against China - and the reason being the wider geostrategic context.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#39

Post by NicoJuicy »

noir-york wrote: post #30
Youden wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation c…

We all know this, but Europe has no trust in the US under Trump.

How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears.

1 example: If Europe would really partner up, Trump would require Russia to be in the table ( G7). The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault.

Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the current leader thinks tweeting is more important.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#40

Post by noir-york »

Youden wrote: post #33
noir-york wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas. China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great. China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation c…

Those are some reasons for "against China" but how about "with the US"? The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries? Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

> The US isn't the only potential ally against Chinese influence, why should Europe align itself with America instead of other countries?

Of course! All countries that value a rules-based order should ally, and that would include the EU, the US, India, Australia, and the many other smaller countries.

> Also, do you think there's no argument to be made for changing China's behaviour through a partnership?

Been tried. India was trying that by letting China have a stake in the economy. It hasn't ummmm worked out so well.

China uses the economy as a tool for its own political aims.

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