Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

polygon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 48 posts

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#31

Post by Cerium »

toyg wrote: post #15
bspammer wrote: post #10

It seems to me that there are two distinct types of cards being banned here: cards that actually have real-world racist connatations (Invoke Prejudice, Jihad, Stone-Throwing devils, Pradesh Gypsies), and cards that have unfortunate wording when read by someone who doesn't play the game (Crusade, Cleanse). I'm glad they're taking a stand on the former, but the latter seems rather silly. I'm no Magic expert, but black…

What is the racist connotation of Stone-Throwing devils? Btw, if Pradesh Gypsies is racist, we better start torching a ton of Marvel comics - Dr. Doom is a gypsy and all the (often excellent) stories around his background use the exact same imagery, all the way to the cyberpunk Doom 2099.

I am not finding that much information on the Stone-Throwing devils, but I think it could be a reference to the Muslim tradition of "stoning of the devil" in which small rocks are thrown by pilgrims at a wall. People who are racist against Muslims might question who is the devil. That the card is part of the Arabian Nights expansion does not help the cause.

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#32

Post by mydongle »

duskwuff wrote: post #24
mydongle wrote: post #16

Why make real lasting change when you could instead ruin a children's card game?

There are literally tens of thousands of M:TG cards. Removing seven of them is hardly "ruining" the game. Besides -- most of the cards being removed had already been out of print since the 1990s. They were effectively irrelevant to most players.

I rest my case. So the cards are literally irrelevant and are out of print and means nothing to the game as it is, and yet we have to ban them?

Shouldn't they be working on more meaningful things that will help PoC like me? 1984ing a children's card games do not pay the bills and nor do they feed my family. Nor do they fix economic inequalities.

If anything, they just made those cards skyrocket in value. Those are collector's items now. Good job SJWs.

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#33

Post by lsiebert »

toyg wrote: post #15
bspammer wrote: post #10

It seems to me that there are two distinct types of cards being banned here: cards that actually have real-world racist connatations (Invoke Prejudice, Jihad, Stone-Throwing devils, Pradesh Gypsies), and cards that have unfortunate wording when read by someone who doesn't play the game (Crusade, Cleanse). I'm glad they're taking a stand on the former, but the latter seems rather silly. I'm no Magic expert, but black…

What is the racist connotation of Stone-Throwing devils? Btw, if Pradesh Gypsies is racist, we better start torching a ton of Marvel comics - Dr. Doom is a gypsy and all the (often excellent) stories around his background use the exact same imagery, all the way to the cyberpunk Doom 2099.

Gypsy is a racist term for an ethnic group called the Roma or Romani, who have long suffered from prejudice in Europe, and whom the Nazi's killed in the Holocaust along with Jewish people and other groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_genocide

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#34

Post by lsiebert »

duskwuff wrote: post #26
toyg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the racist connotation of Stone-Throwing devils? Btw, if Pradesh Gypsies is racist, we better start torching a ton of Marvel comics - Dr. Doom is a gypsy and all the (often excellent) stories around his background use the exact same imagery, all the way to the cyberpunk Doom 2099.

The name and art for Pradesh Gypsies wasn't the problem. The card text was the issue -- it had an ability which could temporarily reduce the strength of an opponent's card, invoking the stereotype of a thieving gypsy.

The name IS problematic.

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#35

Post by duskwuff »

lsiebert wrote: post #34
duskwuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The name and art for Pradesh Gypsies wasn't the problem. The card text was the issue -- it had an ability which could temporarily reduce the strength of an opponent's card, invoking the stereotype of a thieving gypsy.

The name IS problematic.

You're right, that's a fair point. I wouldn't be surprised if WotC had avoided "Romani" because it felt like a demonym which wouldn't exist in their universe. :/

Are there any great substitute terms which focus on the lifestyle commonly associated with the Romani? "Nomadic" (or "nomads") is associated more with peoples who live away from civilization; "travelers" is a little weak, as it can imply a temporary activity.

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#37

Post by krapp »

senectus1 wrote: post #36

this is a stupid slippery slope move. but it wont make any diff to anything anyway, the cards were not in big use. literally no one will notice it.

How is it either stupid or a slippery slope if it won't make a difference and no one will notice it?

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#38

Post by honkycat »

tsherr wrote: post #13
honkycat wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black creatures are "death" creatures, and are things like "Demonic Tutor", "Dark Ritual", "Rune-Scarred Demon"... Demons and vampires and zombies and things like that. The use of "Black" as a stand-in for nefarious things is its own problem, but it does not refer the the color of skin in any way in MTG.

I think this is more of black = Night and night=scary. But it could be seen as tone deaf right now.

as another commenter responded, that is not as universal as you would thing! :)

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#39

Post by honkycat »

hckr_news wrote: post #11
honkycat wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black creatures are "death" creatures, and are things like "Demonic Tutor", "Dark Ritual", "Rune-Scarred Demon"... Demons and vampires and zombies and things like that. The use of "Black" as a stand-in for nefarious things is its own problem, but it does not refer the the color of skin in any way in MTG.

I don’t play Magic, my co-workers do. But seems a little pedantic? I suppose they’re trying to be more inclusive, maybe focus on outreach and getting the game out to other communities.

I am willing to bet they just did not want to hear about these cards anymore, and this is as far as they can go since they do not have a magic lamp to wish them all a way.

The cards mentioned above are NOT good in play, they are only notable for their content.

Personally, I think the art for Imprison is gorgeous, but depicting violence against people of color is dehumanizing and problematic, so I understand and support the decision.

Re: Racist Magic: The Gathering cards banned, removed from database by publisher

#40

Post by brmgb »

lsiebert wrote: post #33
toyg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the racist connotation of Stone-Throwing devils? Btw, if Pradesh Gypsies is racist, we better start torching a ton of Marvel comics - Dr. Doom is a gypsy and all the (often excellent) stories around his background use the exact same imagery, all the way to the cyberpunk Doom 2099.

Gypsy is a racist term for an ethnic group called the Roma or Romani, who have long suffered from prejudice in Europe, and whom the Nazi's killed in the Holocaust along with Jewish people and other groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_genocide

> Gypsy is a racist term for an ethnic group called the Roma or Romani, who have long suffered from prejudice in Europe

It is an exonyme, so shouldn't be preferred but is not a racist term in itself. It wasn't coined as a slur and isn't in itself derogatory. It is built in the same way Roma is from a time people thought the ethnic group came from Egyptia (well most likely what was then called small Egyptia so Epirus in Greece). It also often tends to be used as a synonym for nomads with people referring to the Irish Travellers as gispies.

The card effect however seems to refer to the stereotype attached to Romani which is very much racist.

As an aside, it is a lot less clear to me as a foreigner why crusade and jihad are seen as racist cards. They refer to historical conflicts which were motivated by religion not ethnicity. It might be because my native language hasn't stretched the definition of the word racism as much as American English did. The world now seems to encompass any form of prejudice in America but confusingly to me sometimes strangely not things which would be considered extremely racist in my native language like applying the world race to humans. Sometimes I feel like a cultural gulf is opening between both sides of the Atlantic regarding what is and isn't appropriate.

Post reply on HN