Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#31

Post by briefcomment » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 4:04 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #29

briefcomment wrote: post #8

What about this alternative: Capitalism where you can't amass more personal wealth than $100M. The only reason I would think you would need more money than that is if you wanted to push ideas that the population would not vote for. I have much more faith in people closer to issues solving them with more good faith and efficiency than unelected billionaires being effectively philanthropic. I would rather see more rich…

What if you started a company, grew it and went public and in the ensuing years the markets pushed its value up such that your share was suddenly, and temporarily, worth more than $100m? Are you forced to sell the excess and be forced to pay a capital gains tax and reduce your control over your company?

I think the increased competition would limit huge valuations, but maybe any overflow could go to other employees. Beyond that though, it's hard to see what would make the most sense. My guess is that we would have a system different than owning stock in a random company. There's probably no reason we need to be tied to what we currently do.

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#32

Post by briefcomment » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 4:15 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #30

briefcomment wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of rules though, and rules bog a society down. It definitely sounds weird, but seriously, why would you need more than $50 million to live a good life? At that point, you're probably imposing on other people rather than focusing on yourself. What do you do with wealth after $50mil? You probably exercise your influence on people who would be much better off being helped by people who are closer to the pro…

but, who cares how much somebody else has. The problem is not how much somebody else has. The problem is that a person can work 40 hours a week for 40 years and not have anything to show for it. And the reason they don't have anything to show is because they find themselves surrounded by vampires sucking them dry from paycheck to paycheck. "Inequality" is not a problem that needs solving, its a symptom of a society t…

I think we're focusing on different aspects of this. I don't really care about equity. I think capped wealth would create more equity from greater competition (think localized everything, or highly specialized services (Google early 2000's instead of now)), but that's besides the point.

What I'm really trying to accomplish is to not let uber rich people have unlimited power in setting or even skirting policy. Some of the uber rich don't just own private planes and eat off gold plates. They try to impose their views on the world without having to be elected. They have so much money, that they can buy anyone or anything. And when our elected officials are bought, or when unreasonable amounts of land or capital are bought, the uber rich then have stupid amounts of leverage, and aren't subject to pushback.

The uber rich don't have to worry about how much normal people complain. They can ignore everyone and suffer no consequences (unless they're doing something obviously illegal, but they're probably not so stupid as to do that).

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#33

Post by taborj » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 4:15 AM UTC

RickJWagner wrote: post #17

No, it's not time. Before coronavirus, we had a roaring economy, record low unemployment, rising wages, and a soaring stock market. I think we can return to that state, let's not radically change things. Coronavirus was a 'black swan'.

In addition, the US economy is rebounding faster than anyone predicted, indicating a strong foundation. Capitalism did that.

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#34

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 5:32 AM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #32

jay_kyburz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but, who cares how much somebody else has. The problem is not how much somebody else has. The problem is that a person can work 40 hours a week for 40 years and not have anything to show for it. And the reason they don't have anything to show is because they find themselves surrounded by vampires sucking them dry from paycheck to paycheck. "Inequality" is not a problem that needs solving, its a symptom of a society t…

I think we're focusing on different aspects of this. I don't really care about equity. I think capped wealth would create more equity from greater competition (think localized everything, or highly specialized services (Google early 2000's instead of now)), but that's besides the point. What I'm really trying to accomplish is to not let uber rich people have unlimited power in setting or even skirting policy. Some of…

Well then, if they break the law and try and subvert our democracy we should put them in jail and seize everything. If we don't have the capacity to do that, we don't have the capacity to cap their wealth.

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#35

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 7:06 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #7

hexagone wrote: post #6

"Millennials are the most informed..." Millennials have least overlap with a living example of Communism. A turning point in Orwell's life came when he visited USSR. There's no USSR for a millennial to visit and validate his/her theories, College campus politics doesn't challenge them enough.

Orwell was opposed to the USSR when he realized their imperialism, not when he realized that socialism was a bad idea. In any case, there are living examples of socialism right now. They are small in scale, but seem to be better than capitalism. Millennial socialism is also much closer to the socialism of George Orwell in any case, because it is much more libertarian than that of the 1900s.

Where are you talking about? Cuba, Venezuela?

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#36

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 7:11 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #34

briefcomment wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're focusing on different aspects of this. I don't really care about equity. I think capped wealth would create more equity from greater competition (think localized everything, or highly specialized services (Google early 2000's instead of now)), but that's besides the point. What I'm really trying to accomplish is to not let uber rich people have unlimited power in setting or even skirting policy. Some of…

Well then, if they break the law and try and subvert our democracy we should put them in jail and seize everything. If we don't have the capacity to do that, we don't have the capacity to cap their wealth.

They don’t have to break the law to exert great control over others.

And that’s the only point in having so much wealth.

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#37

Post by RhysU » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #23

briefcomment wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the rich getting richer allows the people who the politicians want to suck up to escape from most of the problems in the country, and therefore allows them to haggle with politics and policies instead of really focus on pressing issues. Easy fix would be to limit how much wealth you can amass. Who really needs more than $50million?

Who needs more than full belly and a roof over their heads? It's weird to want to cap somebodies worth. We need to limit how people and companies can use their wealth to exert power or make more money. How about a rule where you can't charge more rent that what it costs to maintain the property. How about a rule where you can't sell drugs after you have recouped the cost to develop them. How about a rule where you ca…

> How about a rule where employees of a company automatically paid dividends before shareholders are.

Wages...?

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#38

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #35

sudosysgen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orwell was opposed to the USSR when he realized their imperialism, not when he realized that socialism was a bad idea. In any case, there are living examples of socialism right now. They are small in scale, but seem to be better than capitalism. Millennial socialism is also much closer to the socialism of George Orwell in any case, because it is much more libertarian than that of the 1900s.

Where are you talking about? Cuba, Venezuela?

Modern experiments would be Rojava, the Zapatistas, and so on.

Venezuela never got even close to socialism due to frankly stupid economic policy, their share of private enterprise was even higher than France, and Cuba while much better than comparable South American states is not modern, nor an experiment.

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#39

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #36

jay_kyburz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then, if they break the law and try and subvert our democracy we should put them in jail and seize everything. If we don't have the capacity to do that, we don't have the capacity to cap their wealth.

They don’t have to break the law to exert great control over others. And that’s the only point in having so much wealth.

Its is if we make a law saying you can't do that. That's the point I am trying to make. If we can make laws, we can fix problems.

Re: Is It Time to Talk About Post-Capitalism in America?

#40

Post by xtiansimon » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 11:16 AM UTC

It's never _not been time_ to talk about post-Capitalism. (America is not a political state like the former USSR). It's just always been a _short discussion_.