Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#31

Post by libertine » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #23

libertine wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly this came to me after I've read your reply, and I think you're onto something: Is the 50% market share really necessary to claim who's a monopoly? Maybe it's time to re evaluate the definition of monopoly.

It is not a clear cut 50%, but it is about options. There are plenty of alternative for books, ebooks etc. In a monopoly, a single seller controls or dominates the supply of goods and services. The term you may be looking for is monopsony. In a monopsony, a single buyer controls or dominates the demand for goods and services.

But isn't all dependent on the frame?

Amazon owns the monopoly of the ebooks for the KPF (Kindle Package Format), but it's not the monopoly of ebooks market.

Google has the monopoly of search, but doesn't have the monopoly of advertising.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#32

Post by m0zg » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

_alex_ wrote: post #13

m0zg wrote: post #10

He's right though. As far as the first amendment goes, books are the most robust medium we have. You can go to Amazon right now and buy a copy of Mein Kampf, hardcover, paperback, or Kindle. Surely Berenson's book is not worse than Mein Kampf? Here's a though experiment, reductio ad absurdum, if you will. Say you like Bezos' politics and agree with the stuff he wants to censor. Say tomorrow Bezos is run over by a bus…

First amendment protects you from the government, not corporations

Filed away for when Amazon inevitably decides to censor the speech you like.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#33

Post by enitihas » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #29

logicprog wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting a comment from upstream in response to this: > In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is So let's summarize: Amazon isn't a monopoly in "shopping" in any sense; there are other companies that run datacenters; since when does Amazon do live streaming? (and even if it does th…

1: Waltmart is just us, amazon is global (try to think about that the world is bigger then just the us please) 2: Livestreaming - Twitch, with you're arguments google is not a monopoly (there are other search-engines) and no, livestreaming to millions is not something 1000 other apps can do...know why...datacenters 3: Audible probably 90% market-share 4: Ebooks of course they are the biggest seller of ebooks in combi…

1. Walmart operates in many countries, plus their US only revenue might be larger than Amazon's all retail revenue. Plus Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook operate in nearly all countries, a much bigger number than Amazon.

2. Twitch is restricted to a niche. Facebook video, YouTube, and even TikTok all have more users.

3. This might be correct but this is a very small market. Microsoft has similar market share in Office Suits.

4. Biggest seller doesn't make a monopoly. If it did, every industry will bave a monopoly.

5. How is AWS a monopoly there, when so many competitors exist, and the likes of Google have humongous internal data centres which might be on the same scale as all of AWS.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#34

Post by libertine » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #30

libertine wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say we shouldn't have criterias. I said that the "50% market share" seems to have flaws. Why not look at market caps? Well, the last monopoly was broken in 1982, isn't odd that since then no other monopoly has ever existed? You currently have monopolies that serve political agendas, that's a better stick I guess.

What does monopoly have to do with market cap? Market cap is an abstract concept on how much the market values something, and doesn't have much concrete stuff to be based on. Market cap goes way up during bubbles. If companies were to be broken for profits, there are so many companies ahead of Amazon. >Well, the last monopoly was broken in 1982, isn't odd that since then no other monopoly has ever existed? Many monop…

>What does monopoly have to do with market cap?

Well my point is that 50% of a 100 million USD market is different from 50% of 1 trillion USD market. On the later you don't that much market share to pull your weight on the market.

>If companies were to be broken for profits, there are so many companies ahead of Amazon.

That wouldn't work, specially with the gymnastics that's done.

>But there is no industry in which Amazon is a monopoly.

Not even AWS?

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#35

Post by enitihas » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #34

enitihas wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does monopoly have to do with market cap? Market cap is an abstract concept on how much the market values something, and doesn't have much concrete stuff to be based on. Market cap goes way up during bubbles. If companies were to be broken for profits, there are so many companies ahead of Amazon. >Well, the last monopoly was broken in 1982, isn't odd that since then no other monopoly has ever existed? Many monop…

>What does monopoly have to do with market cap? Well my point is that 50% of a 100 million USD market is different from 50% of 1 trillion USD market. On the later you don't that much market share to pull your weight on the market. >If companies were to be broken for profits, there are so many companies ahead of Amazon. That wouldn't work, specially with the gymnastics that's done. >But there is no industry in which A…

How is AWS a monopoly? There are several competitors, two with similar market cap as Amazon and likely more cash in the bank. AWS neither builds on any pre existing monopoly, not is being used to push another product.

Contrast this with Azure, which greatly benefited from the Windows and Office monopoly. I am pretty sure the Windows, AD, Office monopoly is the prime reason Azure is where it is today.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#36

Post by nix23 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #33

nix23 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1: Waltmart is just us, amazon is global (try to think about that the world is bigger then just the us please) 2: Livestreaming - Twitch, with you're arguments google is not a monopoly (there are other search-engines) and no, livestreaming to millions is not something 1000 other apps can do...know why...datacenters 3: Audible probably 90% market-share 4: Ebooks of course they are the biggest seller of ebooks in combi…

1. Walmart operates in many countries, plus their US only revenue might be larger than Amazon's all retail revenue. Plus Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook operate in nearly all countries, a much bigger number than Amazon. 2. Twitch is restricted to a niche. Facebook video, YouTube, and even TikTok all have more users. 3. This might be correct but this is a very small market. Microsoft has similar market share in Off…

>Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook

Not shopping/ecommerce..oh and i never said that google is not a monopoly

>Twitch is restricted to a niche

Facbook, ~youtube, TikTok ist NOT Livestreaming...also not Zoom or Skype

>Biggest seller doesn't make a monopoly

When you (Amazon) can make the price because everything other is a loss for you (the producer)..yes then it is a monopoly

>How is AWS a monopoly there

Yes i wrote thats maybe the only point you are right

Oh and here a interesting link for your Walmart-theory: https://www.supermarketnews.com/retail-financial/amazon-pred...

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#37

Post by m0zg » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #16

m0zg wrote: post #10

He's right though. As far as the first amendment goes, books are the most robust medium we have. You can go to Amazon right now and buy a copy of Mein Kampf, hardcover, paperback, or Kindle. Surely Berenson's book is not worse than Mein Kampf? Here's a though experiment, reductio ad absurdum, if you will. Say you like Bezos' politics and agree with the stuff he wants to censor. Say tomorrow Bezos is run over by a bus…

> You can go to Amazon right now and buy a copy of Mein Kampf Not in Germany. I sell books worldwide on Amazon, and the number of titles that are banned in countries (not just Germany, BTW) is pretty astounding. And it's mostly not Hitler stuff, either.

The vast majority of countries do not have freedom of speech. Germany is one of those countries. You will say and do whatever Merkel tells you to say and do. The United States is not like that.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#38

Post by mandeepj » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

A couple of days ago he tweeted - "off twitter for a while". I knew he'll be back soon. So, there he is. His "while" is very short :-).

There's a pattern here. He wants to be in the news actively. So, he picks up one thing or another. If you are not paying for marketing then you have to do it yourself.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#39

Post by nailer » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #14

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is https://electrek.co/2020/02/04/tesla-electric-car-sales-us-m... ). Does that mean Tesla is a monopoly, and should be broken up?

Read the parent tweet.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#40

Post by patagurbon » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #15

enitihas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think bookstores are compelled to sell books? How is that free speech? That is compelled speech. And Amazon is not a monopoly in any reasonable definition. You can sell books on 100 different stores and via so many other publishers.

Amazon is a monopoly on Kindle, which is what the author has issues with. It's sort of like if there was only one manufacturer of a printing press and they forbade you from printing anything they don't like on it. Also, every time a rebuttal starts with "so", the rest is an attempt at mind reading. Those are always unsuccessful.

No, Kindle can load ebooks from your PC or Mac with the included USB cable.