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Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#31

Post by syshum »

rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

>>This is before we get into whether we really even want "those people"

this is the key point. I have known many people that would like to have been a "police officer" in the sense that I believe many people think policing should be. After finding out it is more like the military than servicing the community they dropped the pursuit

More recently I have even seen many Former Military people shy away from going into the policing because the paramilitary tactics and procedures of modern militarized policing are in many ways MORE extreme than any rules of engagement that the military employed in their theaters of operation (i.e US Police treat citizens of this nation worse than the US Military does when we invade a nation)

Any Police Reform that does not involve MASSIVE demilitarization of the police force is a waste of time

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#32

Post by dashundchen »

catalogia wrote: post #22
dashundchen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, maybe there is limited use in some of this equipment. But my small city police department recently got a grant for 450 high powered assault rifles and armored vests, on top of the hundreds they already had. There are only 700 officers including things like traffic enforcement. Of course the police union lobbied for more. They have armored trucks and undercover vehicles. They have mobile towers to survey. They h…

The equipment they request betrays their perspective. They see themselves as having more in common with soldiers in occupied Baghdad than police officers.

That so many American officers choose to represent themselves with "The Punisher" is very revealing.

https://www.vulture.com/2017/11/marvel-punisher-police-milit...

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#33

Post by OnlyOneCannolo »

catalogia wrote: post #17
ksdale wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is spot on, and not just because of creating the impression to people looking at police. I also think that if police see their tools as the tools of a soldier, they are more likely to act like soldiers. I don't remember who said it, in relation to sports - "Look good, feel good, play good." I think how you look can absolutely affect how you behave.

I think we should also make it legal for police departments to discriminate against combat veterans when hiring, and encourage them to do so. Perhaps as a token of fairness, this could be paired with a separate initiative to provide other sort of jobs to combat veterans. People trained by the military to police occupied communities should not be allowed to act as civilian police in peacetime conditions.

Is there evidence to suggest that violent police are disproportionately ex-military? Is there anything less extreme we could do to reduce violence from both veteran and non-veteran police?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#34

Post by makoz »

pmorici wrote: post #18
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

Are we factoring in the vastly different requirements for each profession starting out?

Seems disingenuous to compare say Doctors who go through medical school vs people who only need a high school degree and however long training takes.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#35

Post by Terretta »

pmorici wrote: post #18
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

Is "the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage" overstating things a little?

Looks like NYC cops make more than NYC nurses, or it's close.

From the source, starting $42K, $85K after 5 years, plus benefits:

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-be...

New York nursing, average pay (> 5 years) $83K, $89K in NYC.

When you factor in years of medical school for the degree, medical malpractice insurance, and lack of benefits versus police pension, police are generally netting more.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#36

Post by maxfan8 »

pmorici wrote: post #18
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

Sure, medical professionals get paid a lot. They also have a lot of tuitions/student loans to pay.

Training and educating medical professionals is not a cheap task.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#37

Post by baumandm »

pmorici wrote: post #18
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

I believe there was a thread here previously on this topic. It varies across jurisdictions but most police officers are paid better than other salaried workers[1], which is significantly above the minimum wage[2].

[1] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/06/in-blue-but-no...

[2] The effective nationwide minimum wage, (the wage that the average minimum wage worker earns), is $11.80 as of May 2019. So 40 hr/week * 52 weeks = $24,544 annually. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta...)

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#39

Post by ikeyany »

RangerScience wrote: post #16
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

Changing the police narrative to one of serving, regardless of adversity (see doctors and USPS) from one of "getting to play with violent toys"...

There was a big push for more community policing and less "tacticool" policing the last time these protests happened. That seemed to have petered out after a few years.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#40

Post by syshum »

pmorici wrote: post #18
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

Where are police officers being paid Minimum Wage?

In my city a 1st year officer makes about 15-20% more than the median HOUSEHOLD income for the city. (most Households are 2 income at least).

That is base income not factoring in Shift Premiums, Overtime, and various other income they earn

So I would love to know what city you are referring to where cops are being paid the minimum wage

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