University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT • Hacker News Board

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#31

Post by zests » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

basementcat wrote: post #13

seibelj wrote: post #7

Another strike against genuine education. Now prep schools that have 17 valedictorians will help their students pad their applications with nonsense extra-curricular activities and experiences. However it's likely much easier to create the same pastiche of fluff in poorly-performing schools than it is to actually raise test scores. Now more than ever, college signals nothing other than the ability to follow rules and…

Alternatively, this may prompt more students to take the AMC examinations. https://www.maa.org/math-competitions

Good luck self studying for those -- I tried. I made AIME but had no chance there.

There's no way a significant number of generic public high schools start caring about the AMC. It will just be helicopter parents, wealthy private schools and the odd self motivated student.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#32

Post by kansface » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

stu2b50 wrote: post #18

I think this is a good move overall. Remember, they're not phasing out tests entirely, it's over a 5 year period before they can develop alternative tests. I think US college exam systems are horribly flawed. For one, why are they run by a private non-profit rather than the government? They're also clearly not difficult enough, when at elite universities it's more a qualification than a determinant. In other nations,…

What are the odds that the UC system will make a harder test, and secondly, will actually get good applicants to take it?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#33

Post by remarkEon » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission since paying a few grand for prep sessions (for piece of mind, mostly) on what's a pretty darn good measure of academic aptitude is a waste of everyone's time, now that the test is rendered meaningless ... until California develops their own. I'm sure whatever they come up with will be quite the improvement.

If there was a checklist that you'd go down to help the University system implode "remove testing for academic aptitude" is probably right before "all objective measures of performance are banned". At that point who the hell can justify paying $150k+ for a "degree"?

Edit: pasting this from my below comment.

I think people are misinterpreting my comment as suggesting elite parents would've been against this - far from it. They absolutely wanted this because now it's easier to hide middling academic aptitude from admissions boards at elite schools.

To be clear: Removing this test helps elite parents, and hurts those who can't afford spending money on "summer experiences" abroad or poverty tourism or whatever.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#34

Post by BurningFrog » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

karanke wrote: post #8

redisman wrote: post #6

Paywall. What is the proposed solution to replace it?

They're creating their own test. > The unanimous 23-to-0 vote ratified a proposal put forward last month by UC President Janet Napolitano to phase out the exams over the next five years until the sprawling UC system can develop its own test.

How would the new test be better than SAT?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#35

Post by stu2b50 » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #11

karanke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're creating their own test. > The unanimous 23-to-0 vote ratified a proposal put forward last month by UC President Janet Napolitano to phase out the exams over the next five years until the sprawling UC system can develop its own test.

Likely not: > Ms. Napolitano’s proposal allows four years for the UC system to develop a new exam. If it fails to create or adopt one, then it likely would cease to use any exam, said Robert Schaeffer, public education director of the National Center for Fair and Open Testing, known as FairTest, which has fought against standardized testing for 30 years. Mr. Schaeffer said he doesn’t believe a new exam will be implem…

To be fair, that's an assertion with zero evidence or even reasoning, from someone who, having "fought against standardized testing for 30 years", is not exactly an unbiased source.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#36

Post by Medicalidiot » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

Personally, I would like to a see a government sponsored test where the study materials are provided for free. I feel like that would help decrease the amount of people who couldn't afford the prep courses or tutors. Not ideal, but better than the current system where wealthy parents pay for the best tutors and materials.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#37

Post by MattGaiser » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #33

That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission since paying a few grand for prep sessions (for piece of mind, mostly) on what's a pretty darn good measure of academic aptitude is a waste of everyone's time, now that the test is rendered meaningless ... until California develops their own. I'm su…

> That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission

It is far easier to influence extracurriculars and grades with money.

I went to an expensive private school. Nobody there (nor their parents) would have opposed eliminating the SAT and replacing it with essays and activities.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#38

Post by andi999 » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

If one leaves out the 'what is fair' part, then it is ok (and probably best for society) that a student gets favored who can learn/absorb the material (no matter how).

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#39

Post by saagarjha » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

kansface wrote: post #32

stu2b50 wrote: post #18

I think this is a good move overall. Remember, they're not phasing out tests entirely, it's over a 5 year period before they can develop alternative tests. I think US college exam systems are horribly flawed. For one, why are they run by a private non-profit rather than the government? They're also clearly not difficult enough, when at elite universities it's more a qualification than a determinant. In other nations,…

What are the odds that the UC system will make a harder test, and secondly, will actually get good applicants to take it?

Whatever test the UC system comes up with will be taken by a huge fraction of college applicants, especially the good ones.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#40

Post by stu2b50 » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

corrupt_measure wrote: post #29

stu2b50 wrote: post #18

I think this is a good move overall. Remember, they're not phasing out tests entirely, it's over a 5 year period before they can develop alternative tests. I think US college exam systems are horribly flawed. For one, why are they run by a private non-profit rather than the government? They're also clearly not difficult enough, when at elite universities it's more a qualification than a determinant. In other nations,…

They're definitely difficult enough to separate the abilities of most students into rough groups. At the upper 1% it's certainly hard to differentiate but for the other 99% it's quite effective.

What's the downside to making it harder, though? Scores are all considered relative. If the average student makes a 600 points out of whatever instead of 800 points out of whatever, it doesn't actually change anything for them.