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Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

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Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#31

Post by Klonoar »

This feels like a "welp we need to cut some pay, let's see who takes the bait".

Cost of living should not dictate your value to the company. If you're an engineer supporting x number of users worth y dollars, it literally does not change what you bring to the table whether you do the job in SF or Birmingham.

Yes, they could hire cheaper in Birmingham, but they can't hire _you_. If you have a proven track record of doing incredible work, then you should be paid accordingly. What you pay in rent/mortgage/etc is none of the company's business.

I would argue that if you're a SWE and you go along with this, you're complicit in the wage fixing that this industry has had to grapple with for ages now. Demand to be paid what you're worth or walk.

(And yes, I get that some people can't afford to be choosy. Those of us who can, should be, though.)

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#32

Post by huangc10 »

Always two sides to the same story. As a software engineer, of course I think I should make the same regardless of I'm on-site or remote. As a founder, of course I'm not going to pay someone who works on-site vs. remote the same. It's a never ending debate.

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#33

Post by christiansakai »

nostromo wrote: post #7

People should be warned that working remotely has been career suicide for as long as I've been in tech. Being "out of sight, out of mind" from management generally means you're passed over for promotions, and often the first to get cut during layoffs. It's just human nature. It's easier to layoff the person that's been working from across the country (or another country) than it is to layoff the person at the desk ne…

I think small team and good manager/team lead will mitigate this.

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#34

Post by joshpadnick »

We're a remote-first company and went through this same discussion when we began hiring people in different cities, not just in the USA but all around the world. What we found is that any approach to setting salaries has to balance the following factors:

* Pay people enough to live comfortably

* Pay people enough that they accept our offer vs competition

* Pay people in a way that feels fair

* Pay people in a way that is transparent

* Pay people in a way the company can afford it

* Pay people in a way that there isn't a risk of huge fluctuations (e.g. currency fluctuations)

Without a doubt the best solution is to pay every employee as if they live in San Francisco, what we call "single-city." That gives high marks on every dimension above...except that it's extremely expensive for the company. Basecamp.com can afford this but I doubt most companies can.

We ultimately went with a formula where we look up the average salary for your title in NYC (the USA's most expensive city), multiply it by some multiplier (to make sure we pay systematically above market), and discount it by the cost of living in your city compared the cost of living in NYC.

When we can afford it, we'll move to a single-city model based on San Francisco.

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#35

Post by asah »

somebrody wrote: post #29
nostromo wrote: post #7

People should be warned that working remotely has been career suicide for as long as I've been in tech. Being "out of sight, out of mind" from management generally means you're passed over for promotions, and often the first to get cut during layoffs. It's just human nature. It's easier to layoff the person that's been working from across the country (or another country) than it is to layoff the person at the desk ne…

It is only suicide for in-company promotion tracks. It has no effect on your career if you learn to not depend on in-company tracks for your success.

"I work for Silicon Valley Inc, NameOfCompany division"

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#36

Post by jedberg »

Jemaclus wrote: post #2

This is one of the things that's always bothered me. Let's say you hire me for your company in San Francisco and pay me $150K. You've made a calculation: my value to the company is greater than $150K, and $150K is a price you're willing to pay to leverage that value. In other words, the company will (eventually) make more than $150K per year off my contributions to the company. But now if I decide to move to Tulsa, O…

You're not being paid based on your value to the company. You're being paid based on the minimum they can pay you to get you to work there.

If you move to Tulsa, you're minimum goes down because they know there are fewer opportunities for you to work in Tulsa.

As remote work becomes more prominent, then your salary would probably go back up as there will be more jobs for you in Tulsa. But it probably won't go back up to SF levels because everyone else has that opportunity too.

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#37

Post by somebrody »

alkibiades wrote: post #15
nostromo wrote: post #7

People should be warned that working remotely has been career suicide for as long as I've been in tech. Being "out of sight, out of mind" from management generally means you're passed over for promotions, and often the first to get cut during layoffs. It's just human nature. It's easier to layoff the person that's been working from across the country (or another country) than it is to layoff the person at the desk ne…

i think therse a good subset of people who dont really care that much about their careers. atleast from my experience working at fang. they just like the high pay and WLB and dont seem to care about being promoted or advancement.

> good subset of people who dont really care that much about their careers

Caring too much is a bad bargain. The companies don't care too much about you and me

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#38

Post by subsubzero »

This is no surprise, I commented earlier on this with another company but figured I can re-use it here:

Both me and my Wife's company have pay bands based on geographical region(most employees know nothing about this and most companies employ these salary COL changes for relocation) and certain regions you can take a big pay cut. Say your salary in the bay area is 100k for example, move to the South, say Florida and it typically drops 30%(typically as low as they chop your salary) so your new salary is 70k, Denver area is 15% paycut etc. These numbers change somewhat from company to company but they do exist for most companies and should be factored in.

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#39

Post by maximente »

Jemaclus wrote: post #2

This is one of the things that's always bothered me. Let's say you hire me for your company in San Francisco and pay me $150K. You've made a calculation: my value to the company is greater than $150K, and $150K is a price you're willing to pay to leverage that value. In other words, the company will (eventually) make more than $150K per year off my contributions to the company. But now if I decide to move to Tulsa, O…

why does it bother you? you're thinking like some individual laborer in a weirdly abstract sense, not like the person paying them. hint: you aren't paid based on your worth, you're paid based on, in general, the lowest that your employer can afford to pay you to not leave for a competitor.

capital on the aggregate always tries to get labor to work for the lowest possible price that they can. that's why negotiations go on between workers and employers. that's why if you don't negotiate, you get bowled over.

software engineers seem to think that they are this ultra elite labor class whose "value" is somehow tied completely to their intrinsic skills. that all goes out the window when software engineers begrudgingly accept massive pay cuts to take their insanely comfortable salary and lifestyle to a low COL area. that ought to tell you everything you need to know about your intrinsic "value": you lose immense power when you don't live in a place where you can quickly and easily get a job with a competitor.

if software engineers learn anything from this, it's that they are being paid a premium to essentially not change companies.

Re: Zuckerberg says employees moving out of Silicon Valley may face pay cuts

#40

Post by Nasrudith »

enitihas wrote: post #9
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

This is one of the things that's always bothered me. Let's say you hire me for your company in San Francisco and pay me $150K. You've made a calculation: my value to the company is greater than $150K, and $150K is a price you're willing to pay to leverage that value. In other words, the company will (eventually) make more than $150K per year off my contributions to the company. But now if I decide to move to Tulsa, O…

> You've made a calculation: my value to the company is greater than $150K, and $150K is a price you're willing to pay to leverage that value. You are in for some surprises then. Companies don't pay you just in relation to the value you deliver. Most companies pay the least amount required to get the value you deliver. Now if you are competing against engineers who are willing to accept lower salary due to low CoL in…

How can it be otherwise when it "should be"? I get that it is vexxing to the workers in the high COL area but why would it be done otherwise? How could it even work otherwise within the constraints. The only reason to pay more for higher COL jobs is if they get more utility.
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