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Making Emacs Popular Again

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31–40 of 782 posts

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#31

If they could make some kind of a visual layer that makes it look like Word and Photoshop (not in the same time, I'm being realistic here), their name would be remembered in eternity. Of course, emulating the shortcuts & functionality of Word and Photoshop shouldn't be considered a problem, we are talking Emacs here after all...

Oh, if Emacs ever implement that visual layer, I don't think it’s unrealistic to expect it to looks like Photoshop _and_ Word at the same time.

Emacs already have a concept of frame, and you can already configure each frame independently (e.g. for term and X), all connecting to a single Emacs process, and can share buffers/yank ring/etc. across multiple frames.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#32
I think a large part of the issue is the default keybindings (the GUI is also bad, but I think it's bad in a way that's not going to be impossible to fix without screaming from people who like what's already there). It's truly only lacking a decent text editor.

This isn't to say that the keybindings never made sense; in the stage of computing before X, where Space Cadet-like keyboards were common, it was more than fine.

Currently, though? Entirely different era of computing.

Imagine you're walking in with no clue. You haven't heard of any of the memes, someone just recommended you a text editor. "It's really good! You'll be more productive!" You have no idea what in the world evil is, or why you would ever want it.

You launch the tutorial/tour/whatever it's called and immediately it yells at you to use C-v to jump to the next page. And then M-v to go backwards! If you're a normal user, your response is probably something along the lines of, "Like, why?"

Off to a good start, breaking the most universal keybinding across modern operating systems in the strangest way possible, and not only that, but also breaking one of the biggest implicit rules of keybindings.

You read a little bit more and eventually get to cursor control. Wow, somehow they managed to pick the only possible thing less intuitive than 'hjkl'! Not only that, but it's not even consistently unintuitive!

And that's not even getting into the obvious problems that come with the placement of M and C on modern keyboards.

There are a few solutions to this, obviously, but good luck trying to find a solution that isn't universally-hated.

You could make evil the default. Controversial and only slightly helps the barrier to entry.

You could make it like the Web's model of text-editing but with quality-of-life enhancements. I think this one is probably the winner. It's definitely why Sublime/VSC/Atom won, past everything else.

The Turbo C/Wordstar approach was cool, but has no mind-share today.

You could try something new, I guess? This is dangerous territory, though.

I have no idea what the solution is, but the problem(s) seem obvious. I say this all as a person who really likes Emacs. I even still have most commands memorized despite not having touched it for years now!

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody outside a minority of devs refers to Ctrl+c as C-c. First, C-c is not Ctrl + c; second, it really helps to use compact notation when you read a lot of keybindings; and third, this is approximately the most minor complication in the learning curve of Emacs (otherwise nobody would learn vim, with its insane key mappings and invisible mode transitions).

What is C-c? I have never used emacs so these comments are very confusing.

Emacs' notation for keybindings uses C for indicating the Ctrl/Cmd key and M for the Meta (alt).

Things like C-c C-v are chords. and .

I might be wrong, but I believe that the reason that parent commenter said that "C is not Ctrl" is due to the fact that you can map these keys to any where you want. Most emacs and lispers prefer to have C key bound to caps lock.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#34
post #17

If they could make some kind of a visual layer that makes it look like Word and Photoshop (not in the same time, I'm being realistic here), their name would be remembered in eternity. Of course, emulating the shortcuts & functionality of Word and Photoshop shouldn't be considered a problem, we are talking Emacs here after all...

A closer example might be autocad (at least older versions). You could do everything with a mouse, but a true expert could type the plans for a building faster than you can imagine.

Yes, that's why it's fishy that GIMP doesn't emulate the Photoshop shortcuts/menu structure.

But any arguments regarding word editing in latex markup I won't accept.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I mean. It is insane. I can't get it straight. I really tried years ago. But it is plain and simple stupid. Words once written don't need to be abbreviated. Abbrevation is only useful when writting for speed. When writting for being read don't use them.

> Exactly what I mean. It is insane. I can't get it straight. I really tried years ago. But it is plain and simple stupid. No, you're just being ignorant, and not reading when people try to answer your questions. > Abbreviation is only useful when writing for speed. When writing for reading, don't use them. It's not an abbreviation, it's a different symbol. C is not Ctrl. The software has some “baggage”, being the he…

And yet I could get a few things done in vim in a few minutes, and much more than that in a few weeks. And I choose not to use vim. And yet you said vim has insane key mapping but more people somehow use vim than emacs. Some things are not adding up. Emacs has excellent documentation but somehow very few people are able to use it. Some things are not adding up.

Emacs interface and community mannerisms _are_ user-hostile. As demonstrated by history.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#36

Does it need to be popular or need more users to become maintainers? I use emacs because I can't imagine using anything else that has half the features and is harder to extend. I can't imagine why it needs to be popular. It's a programming environment that happens to have a text editor built in. That appeals to some folks but I can't imagine why someone interested in writing for publication would choose it over Scriv…

I largely agree with you. Out of curiosity, where do you think Unicode support could be better?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#37
I think that the Emacs concept is really good, but it clearly has a lot of problems that make it altogether unattractive to new potential users.

- The keybindings are not the standard CUA ones. Even with Cua Mode, every page on the internet still suggests using the regular old Emacs keybindings. There's weird conflicts between some packages, especially if you use non-default keybinds like Evil. The defaults are not even ergonomic (Emacs pinkie is a thing...) or mnemonic, so there's really nothing but historical interest that makes them the way they are.

- There's no namespacing between packages. They can run right over each other and cause weird bugs. This isn't theoretical; it's what happens when you have a bunch of packages installed. Sorting out performance issues caused by the interactions between packages is very challenging.

- Lots of other defaults are super user-hostile. To get anything approaching the productivity of an editor like Sublime or VS Code, you have to spend hours installing packages, learning their unique keybindings, and sorting out conflicts.

- The base is minimal in a way (it's missing a ton of what is needed to be considered useful today) and also very bloated (it has things like mail readers and web browsers and IRC clients included). The set of default utilities needs to better match what people actually use a text editor for.

At the same time, it does do plenty of things right:

- From anywhere in the editor, you can run code---you don't need to make a new package to be able to execute a snippet of Elisp.

- Unicode works OOTB, which is impressive for a project of that age.

- Some of the "killer apps" like Magit and Org-mode are really good and have spawned their own ecosystems.

- Emacs is oftentimes the first editor to get support for super-obscure programming languages through a package.

A lot of what makes Emacs so cool and so difficult comes from the fact that it doesn't have an "extension API"---packages just run the same kind of Elisp that the editor itself is (mostly) written in.

Edit: I should also add that Elisp is an absolutely terrible programming language when compared to more modern alternatives.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#38

Does it need to be popular or need more users to become maintainers? I use emacs because I can't imagine using anything else that has half the features and is harder to extend. I can't imagine why it needs to be popular. It's a programming environment that happens to have a text editor built in. That appeals to some folks but I can't imagine why someone interested in writing for publication would choose it over Scriv…

Popularity means more users and more contributors. I guess most of the core emacs devs are greybeards who started programming in the 80s or earlier, so what happens when they grow too old? Who will replace them?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#39
post #37

I think that the Emacs concept is really good, but it clearly has a lot of problems that make it altogether unattractive to new potential users. - The keybindings are not the standard CUA ones. Even with Cua Mode, every page on the internet still suggests using the regular old Emacs keybindings. There's weird conflicts between some packages, especially if you use non-default keybinds like Evil. The defaults are not e…

> To get anything approaching the productivity of an editor like Sublime or VS Code, you have to spend hours installing packages, learning their unique keybindings, and sorting out conflicts.

Isn't it the same with VIM or other free editors?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#40
Just got a new Mac computer with Catalina pre-installed, and was surprised to see

    zsh: command not found: emacs
Of course, I can (and did) install it myself, but it used to be included by default.
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