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Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

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Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#31

Post by VeninVidiaVicii »

soraminazuki wrote: post #8
hurricanetc wrote: post #2

It’s too bad that people can’t follow simple requests. Governments are forced to choose between allowing idiot citizens to destroy society or to implement draconian policies. Medical professionals are being asked to come out of retirement. Nurses are reusing PPE for weeks. Medical students are graduating early to help. The rest of us are being asked to just stay the fuck home for a few weeks. And we just refuse to do…

> I don’t blame governments. I blame all you idiots who won’t stop going outside. It's precisely this kind of reasoning that this article is having problems with. Pre-COVID19, it was because of the terrorists, drug dealers, and pedophiles that we'd have to give up our freedoms. Now, it's because of "us idiots." We the people are "too idiotic" to decide for ourselves, or so you say.

I know it's annecdotal, but now I've had two elderly relatives die -- one from covid-19, and one from a heart attack, in the past few weeks. The second wasn't able to get into the healthcare system because it is just too overstretched. Firstly, causes by a very slow ambulance, and got diverted to an ER just about as far away as you can get.

I have also seen more people walking along our city exercise path than ever before. There's not really a good middle ground here, exercising your civil liberties is resulting in deaths.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#32

Post by monadgonad »

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #18
hurricanetc wrote: post #2

It’s too bad that people can’t follow simple requests. Governments are forced to choose between allowing idiot citizens to destroy society or to implement draconian policies. Medical professionals are being asked to come out of retirement. Nurses are reusing PPE for weeks. Medical students are graduating early to help. The rest of us are being asked to just stay the fuck home for a few weeks. And we just refuse to do…

Medical spends literally billions of dollars to regulate out competition. Then they can't handle demand. Blame them and corrupt politicians. Also pandemics mean either 70 percent of people will catch it, or we need a vaccine. Why even quarentine? Flatten the curve so we can die on ventilators instead?

Flatten the curve so that much fewer people will die until a vaccine can be developed.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#33

Post by true_religion »

Nasrudith wrote: post #12
swiley wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people can’t help it, we beat them into the dirt and now they don’t have a choice. Also there’s the (probably correct) expectation that corporations and governments will abuse a lot of the emergency provisions and that feeds the rebellion. Also, it shouldn’t be surprising that young people react with apathy toward a large problem like this when older people have at best reacted towards their problems with ap…

Anecdotally I have found it is the older half (latter middle age) that are less likely to take it seriously ironically and likely to complain about inconveniences or that they are "overreacting". I blame Fox News for it, they are outright the world's largest elder abuse network. Personally I suspect the abysmal leadership and the utterly corrupt fuck ups in preparations who spent more time insider trading than stocki…

Maybe it’s that older people are more used to the concept of death, so show less fear.

When I was 30, the sudden acceleration in the number of people I knew dying was incredible. Aunts, uncles, friends, teachers all started to die from complications of old age. At first I was shocked, but soon I became jaded since there’s nothing you can do about other people getting old.

Once you get so used to that, it’s seen as an inevitability rather than something to be defended against at all cost of quality of life.

As a further anecdote, during this crisis I see young people in stores studious avoiding the 6 foot distance rule, even going as far as to jump out of my aisle to maintain it. Older people though are congregating in groups, and gossiping like normal instead.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#34

Post by cobookman »

The article claims China is a role model.

However chinas reported numbers is not their actual numbers. We have no clue if China’s approach was effective.

Even today ppl in China are still getting sick. With weekend traffic in Beijing not recovered.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#35

Post by lbeltrame »

monadgonad wrote: post #32
seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical spends literally billions of dollars to regulate out competition. Then they can't handle demand. Blame them and corrupt politicians. Also pandemics mean either 70 percent of people will catch it, or we need a vaccine. Why even quarentine? Flatten the curve so we can die on ventilators instead?

Flatten the curve so that much fewer people will die until a vaccine can be developed.

It's much better to bet on the drugs. A vaccine will take years to be fully available (let's not forget we have just two phase 1 studies going, the efficacy is still yet to be determined): drugs, if the current or upcoming trials are successful, probably within the end of the year.

And like the drugs, a vaccine may not be successful at all. What do we do in that case?

This is a problem for the ICUs only because there is no specific treatment. If we can treat it like we can treat other grave diseases, the impact becomes smaller and more manageable.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#36

Post by simion314 »

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #20

Death rates are at 0.5%, and it was worth shutting down the economy. Car accident death rates are at 1%. Wait until people hear about that. The bigger shock is when people realize that you can't stop the spread of a pandemic. You can flatten the curve to help hospitals. But soon we will find hospitals are more dangerous than staying at home due to infections and that respirators barely improve your chance of survival…

So you assume that yourself are the number guy and know better, so what is the equation that will determine when lockdown is more efficient? what are the inputs in that equation ? Why car deaths would be a factor in why you should implement a lockdown. If you go to a hospital with a illness X would you like a response like "X kills less then cars in our country, until traffic laws are fixed we decided you can suffer and die from X, Have a ice death!"

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#37

Post by dekervin »

I am surprised there hasn't be a bigger spotlight shed on the concepts developped by Michel Foucault around Biopower [0] and the genesis of the modern state. See for example this excerpt of Discipline and punish [1] on what quarantine was like:

"First, a strict spatial partitioning: the closing of the town and its outlying districts, a prohibition to leave the town on pain of death, the killing of all stray animals; the division of the town into distinct quarters, each governed by an intendant. Each street is placed under the authority of a syndic, who keeps it under surveillance; if he leaves the street, he will be condemned to death."

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopower

[1]https://foucault.info/documents/foucault.disciplineAndPunish...

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#38

Post by mrfusion »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #11

> At the ACLU, we have always recognized that, during a disease outbreak, individual rights must sometimes give way to the greater good. After all, when it comes to disease, we are not just individuals but also one big bio-mass. That is why people can sometimes be deprived of their liberty through quarantine, for example. And this is as it should be, provided — and this is a crucial and sometimes violated condition —…

They have a point but I expected them to be doing more at this time. I guess they’d just lose a lot of supporters.

From what I’ve read or related Supreme Court cases the quarantined need a definite end date which a lot of these don’t have.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#39

Post by ozim »

simion314 wrote: post #36
seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #20

Death rates are at 0.5%, and it was worth shutting down the economy. Car accident death rates are at 1%. Wait until people hear about that. The bigger shock is when people realize that you can't stop the spread of a pandemic. You can flatten the curve to help hospitals. But soon we will find hospitals are more dangerous than staying at home due to infections and that respirators barely improve your chance of survival…

So you assume that yourself are the number guy and know better, so what is the equation that will determine when lockdown is more efficient? what are the inputs in that equation ? Why car deaths would be a factor in why you should implement a lockdown. If you go to a hospital with a illness X would you like a response like "X kills less then cars in our country, until traffic laws are fixed we decided you can suffer…

He is not even that good as a number guy...

Current global stats as I write are: 1446242 confirmed, 83424 deaths which in my calculator is giving 5% not 0,5%

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