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Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

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31–40 of 55 posts

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#31
post #10

This is one of those rare cases where you have to directly balance lives against privacy. My feeling is that while privacy is important, it's being taken a bit too seriously given the severity of the crisis. Google and Facebook et al. carry out far more involved and intimate surveillance of people's lives than would be required for an app as described in the article.

This is not an all-or-nothing scenario. The choice is not between an app that saves lives and compromises privacy, or no app and lives lost. Privacy preserving technologies exist, and now is the time to use them. There is an additional technological cost, but that's what we should weigh the privacy costs against. The choice is between an app that doesn't care about privacy versus one that does.

> There is an additional technological cost

Time is of the essence here. I agree that, all else being equal, privacy should be respected. However, if it takes multiple weeks to iron out all the potential privacy issues, this approach becomes much less effective.

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory how? How will you address people without suitable devices? Not everyone has a (suitable) smartphone. Making owning and carrying a smartphone with required app mandatory won't fly in any healthy democracy.

Really? 6 months ago I'd have said that putting the entire nation under house arrest won't fly in any healthy democracy, but here we are. Turns out no country is more democratic than China.

At least in my country the overwhelming majority of the people fully supports the measures. How is that not democratic?

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#33
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the few cases where mandatory installation of apps will save lives, as seen in China/SK. For those "40% only if privacy concerns are addressed" there is a gradient of privacy. How many of them will still have concerns no matter what? And how many will not install anything out of laziness/comfort? Meanwhile, Google and Facebook are installed in 90%+ of phones and happily scoop up location data every day…

Mandatory how? How will you address people without suitable devices? Not everyone has a (suitable) smartphone. Making owning and carrying a smartphone with required app mandatory won't fly in any healthy democracy.

You don't need everyone to have it installed. Just getting a large proportion of people to use it would likely have quite a significant effect in reducing infection spread.

One compromise in making it semi-mandatory could be to reduce lockdown requirements for people using and carrying the app, because they'd be less dangerous.

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#34
post #5

This is one of those rare cases where you have to directly balance lives against privacy. My feeling is that while privacy is important, it's being taken a bit too seriously given the severity of the crisis. Google and Facebook et al. carry out far more involved and intimate surveillance of people's lives than would be required for an app as described in the article.

This is one of the few cases where more privacy might literally save lives, because people will be more inclined to install the app if the privacy is taken more seriously. There was a poll where Germans were asked if they would install a contact tracing app. Some 40% sayed yes outright. Another 40% said "only if privacy concerns are addressed". So you're looking at a potential 40% market penetration without proper pr…

I suspect a large proportion of people would install it if requested to by their government.

"Please install this app to save lives. Don't worry, it collects less data on your movements than Google Maps."

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#35

I installed the contact tracing app from the Indian government on my phone. It won't let me use it without giving location access, not even just to see the app. The Indian government does not have a great track record when it comes to privacy and information security. ( https://www.firstpost.com/india/aadhaar-data-leak-details-of... ) Aadhar is the Indian equivalent of the US SSN. While the cause is noble, there is a…

As a side note, Android requires an app to get location access when using Bluetooth (not sure about iOS). So any Bluetooth contract tracing app will request location access.

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#36
post #6

This is one of those rare cases where you have to directly balance lives against privacy. My feeling is that while privacy is important, it's being taken a bit too seriously given the severity of the crisis. Google and Facebook et al. carry out far more involved and intimate surveillance of people's lives than would be required for an app as described in the article.

That's maybe true, but giving governments the possibility to create movement profiles of people and correlate them is extremely dangerous. Maybe your current government is liberal enough to forego using the political aspect of the tracking app, but you can never be sure that this stays the case. What about governments with authoritarian regimes? Finally regarding Google/FB: Why would you give up even more of your pri…

> What about governments with authoritarian regimes?

They're probably not going to care about people's views in the first place. Such regimes are already mandating apps of this type to be used.

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#37
post #15

TraceTogether[1] by the Singapore government meets most of these requirements and is/will be open sourced soon. 1: https://www.tracetogether.gov.sg

The rki (they are the ones tracking Infektion Numbers etc here in germany) is apperently Building an App based on Trace Together. This (german) article says TraceTogether is linked to your phone number though https://www.golem.de/news/corona-app-per-bluetooth-kontaktpe...

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#38
post #30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could say as well: This is one of the few cases where not living in an open society where citizens have rights might save lives. I wonder. Some of my friends don't own a smartphone. How will that contact tracing app run on their Nokia from 2010? Or will they get a smartphone from the state? How would you check if someone owns a smartphone, or whether they are pretending to have one of the old ones? If your goal i…

Your overthinking it, imagining that a large part of the population wants to be Jason Bourne. It doesn't matter if 1% will evade this (you and your friends). But you show exactly the bigger problem: the West is so individualistic, that it will rather have millions of deaths and economic collapse than a bit of privacy infringement over a number of months, again, everybody viewing himself as some sort of secret agent t…

I grew up in the alps on the countryside and I am thinking about people like my neighbour and my father. Other than them I do understand the reasoning behind contact tracing, while they don't. If they were forced to use such an app they would work against it just out of defiance. And they are by no means special people. They have no idea about computers, they are more or less center conservative or center left.

Especially in the german speaking parts of Europe the scepticism towards government data collection has historical roots that I probably don't have to elaborate on, with people who died from said collection still in living memory. While safety is a fundamental right, it doesn't outweight all the other fundamental rights automatically. These rights need to be balanced even (and especially) in times of crisis.

I think the right way here would be to follow the CCC recommendations, and make it about a voluntary utilitaristic action, rather than enforcing it from the top down. People have to want to do it, just like they did in China. How you will get them there is different in Europe however.

Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps

#39
post #15

TraceTogether[1] by the Singapore government meets most of these requirements and is/will be open sourced soon. 1: https://www.tracetogether.gov.sg

Someone did an analysis on the app and posted on reddit[1]. Turns out they included a gov analytics tracker[2] in the app

1: https://splira.com/2020-03-28/

2: https://wogaa.sg/home/index.html#/

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