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Open Source Ventilator Project

opensourceventilator.ie

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Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#31

Post by [deleted] »

arcticbull wrote: post #25
tcbawo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody knows the asymptomatic rate for certain, one way or the other. We don't know the rate of false positives with existing tests.

Fine, but we absolutely do know for an absolute fact that -- it is not true 15-20% of people with nCoV-19 need a ventilator. We don't know what the number is but we 100% with absolute certainty know it is not 15-20%. If we acquiesce to 70% of the US getting nCoV-19 as the epidemiologists are suggesting that would require 50 million ventilators. There are about 70,000 in the US. So we'd need almost 1000X as many venti…

[deleted]

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#32

Post by DoreenMichele »

arcticbull wrote: post #28
DoreenMichele wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not thrilled because hospitals actively breed antibiotic resistant infections. They are a primary source. Keeping invasive equipment adequately sterile is hard to do, even in a hospital. It's just the nature of the beast. To be clear, I'm extremely not thrilled at the global acceptance that "we need a zillion ventilators" instead of "we need non invasive alternatives and we need to educate the world as to w…

> ...I'm still not thrilled because hospitals actively breed antibiotic resistant infections. They are a primary source. A primary source sure, but likely nothing compared to unnecessarily dosing livestock with antibiotics, and well, large portions of India. [1] 67% of folks in India in an albeit small study exhibited antibiotic resistance. > To be clear, I'm extremely not thrilled at the global acceptance that "we n…

Thank you for acknowledging I might have a valid point.

As for your comments about dosing livestock: That's kind of like saying "We don't need to combat rapes and robberies because murders still happen and murders are so much worse, so no point in even talking about what to do about rape and robbery until there are no more murders in the world."

I beg to differ.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#33

Post by arcticbull »

twomoretime wrote: post #24
DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

I made some remarks about ventilator alternatives here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22624959 To pull out some pertinent details: Ventilators for covid19 seem to be mostly for inflammation and fluid in the lungs (aka pneumonia), not lung or chest paralysis. If you need a ventilator due to inflammation or fluid build up, you can do other things to address those issues. If you are doing home care for serious lu…

> Inflammation can be combated with commonly available non drug remedies, like caffeine, lettuce, avoiding pro inflammatory foods (avoid peanut oil like the devil himself made it for you, limit or avoid bacon as it is hard on the lungs). This sounds like very suspicious folk advice, maybe based off a handful of data mined studies. I appreciate the tip about coughing up a lung though.

Many biologically active chemicals have been identified in nature.

Aspirin (or at least salicylic acid compounds) is in wintergreen and willow bark. Opioids are derived from poppy sap, and eating too many poppyseeds will make you test positive for opium metabolites. Digoxin for heart failure and atrial fibrillation comes from foxgloves.

Coffee, specifically, has tons of data pointing to it improving cardiovascular health including this massive meta-analysis covering 1,279,804 people [1]. This meta-analysis shows a reduction in inflammation from consuming coffee [2].

[1] https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA....

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28967799

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#34

Post by whatshisface »

arcticbull wrote: post #29
whatshisface wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a stadium filled with cots, where there are many doctors walking around telling people "you're going to be okay" while triaging equipment. (An extreme example but not impossible.) I think if you gave a nurse in that situation some forge bellows and realistic instructions for using them, they just might try it. When you're in a real sticky situation, plenty of medical professionals will be willing to shoot for…

That sounds like you're suggesting they'd just be trying to kil everyone instead of trying to treat them. Are you confident in your knowledge of what ventilator is, how it works, who needs it, who can administer it? It feels like you're intentionally trying not to understand the point that just forcing air into someone isn't a valuable thing to do. What matters is how, what degree, the amount of control, volume, timi…

>you're suggesting they'd just be trying to kill everyone instead of trying to treat them.

Triage isn't "trying to kill," it's choosing who gets to benefit from limited medical resources.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#35

Post by arcticbull »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #32
arcticbull wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...I'm still not thrilled because hospitals actively breed antibiotic resistant infections. They are a primary source. A primary source sure, but likely nothing compared to unnecessarily dosing livestock with antibiotics, and well, large portions of India. [1] 67% of folks in India in an albeit small study exhibited antibiotic resistance. > To be clear, I'm extremely not thrilled at the global acceptance that "we n…

Thank you for acknowledging I might have a valid point. As for your comments about dosing livestock: That's kind of like saying "We don't need to combat rapes and robberies because murders still happen and murders are so much worse, so no point in even talking about what to do about rape and robbery until there are no more murders in the world." I beg to differ.

Sorry if it didn't come off that way, but I agree with you haha. Both problems need to be addressed in parallel.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#36

Post by ldng »

chrisseaton wrote: post #3

> 15-20% of infected people require hospitalization for respiratory problems This is wrong - it's 15-20% of identified , diagnosed and subsequently monitored infected people, isn't it? I thought there was a mass of unidentified infected people, and even basically diagnosed but told to just deal with it at home with no further contact as they're low risk and minimal symptoms, and (obviously) 0% of these groups are goi…

You're absolutely right. But does it really matter ?

A lot more ventilator are going to be needed, not in % but in hard cold real absolute number. Isn't that more important ?

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#37

Post by DoreenMichele »

arcticbull wrote: post #35
DoreenMichele wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for acknowledging I might have a valid point. As for your comments about dosing livestock: That's kind of like saying "We don't need to combat rapes and robberies because murders still happen and murders are so much worse, so no point in even talking about what to do about rape and robbery until there are no more murders in the world." I beg to differ.

Sorry if it didn't come off that way, but I agree with you haha. Both problems need to be addressed in parallel.

Yes.

At the moment, I would be happy if we just began promoting non-invasive ventilator alternatives. I'm very concerned this is going to turn into the biblical plagues scenario, where the first plague causes the second which causes the third, etc.

I predict one of those knock on plagues will be antibiotic resistant secondary infections, many fostered by widespread use of ventilators.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#38

Post by arcticbull »

ldng wrote: post #36
chrisseaton wrote: post #3

> 15-20% of infected people require hospitalization for respiratory problems This is wrong - it's 15-20% of identified , diagnosed and subsequently monitored infected people, isn't it? I thought there was a mass of unidentified infected people, and even basically diagnosed but told to just deal with it at home with no further contact as they're low risk and minimal symptoms, and (obviously) 0% of these groups are goi…

You're absolutely right. But does it really matter ? A lot more ventilator are going to be needed, not in % but in hard cold real absolute number. Isn't that more important ?

A lot of ventilators and more importantly people to administer them. This project is not providing a ventilator, and it's not providing people the special training required to administer them. If we need ventilators, we can have ventilator companies produce them using emergency powers every developed country has.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#39

Post by arcticbull »

whatshisface wrote: post #34
arcticbull wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like you're suggesting they'd just be trying to kil everyone instead of trying to treat them. Are you confident in your knowledge of what ventilator is, how it works, who needs it, who can administer it? It feels like you're intentionally trying not to understand the point that just forcing air into someone isn't a valuable thing to do. What matters is how, what degree, the amount of control, volume, timi…

> you're suggesting they'd just be trying to kill everyone instead of trying to treat them. Triage isn't "trying to kill," it's choosing who gets to benefit from limited medical resources.

It's not triage if the device you have is worthless. It's not a medical resource if it's not fit for purpose or if the people using it aren't trained.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#40

Post by chrisseaton »

ldng wrote: post #36
chrisseaton wrote: post #3

> 15-20% of infected people require hospitalization for respiratory problems This is wrong - it's 15-20% of identified , diagnosed and subsequently monitored infected people, isn't it? I thought there was a mass of unidentified infected people, and even basically diagnosed but told to just deal with it at home with no further contact as they're low risk and minimal symptoms, and (obviously) 0% of these groups are goi…

You're absolutely right. But does it really matter ? A lot more ventilator are going to be needed, not in % but in hard cold real absolute number. Isn't that more important ?

> But does it really matter ?

Yes - I think we should challenge misleading information wherever we see it in this situation. Fighting panic is part of the problem and bad numbers cause panic.

I mean, if we don't really care that the numbers aren't accurate because it's more important to emphasise why the project is important, we might as well go all the way and say 99% of people need a ventilator and really sell the project.

There was a news report recently implying a 50/50 survival rate, due to this same kind of assuming everyone realises that you're talking about some group that's already in a bad way, but not actually saying that in the text.

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