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Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

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31–40 of 54 posts

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#31

Sci fi daydream here. What would it take for us to actually try to make such a signal ourselves in space? Really huge explosions? I suppose one weird way to see if they could be alien signals is see if we can imitate them. Of course, that would be no guarantee that we aren’t just making bird calls imitating the sounds of car alarms (or other birds for that matter). But, I mean, if we can detect these signals, if we c…

The Three Body Problem is a first-contact trilogy of books that starts just like this:

Someone ponders what the most powerful thing in our area is (the sun) and then finds a way to influence it just enough so that it can send repeating signals. From there the alien armada heads our way and sets up the plot of the rest of the trilogy!

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#32

One thing that I wonder is whether we could ever identify an alien communication signal as an alien signal is likely to be much more advanced. In that scenario, the alien civilization is likely to be able to send their signal at the Shannon limit. Additionally an advanced civilization is likely to be sending signals optically instead of over radio waves. But even if we assume radio waves, Shannon says that the you ca…

> But even if we assume radio waves, Shannon says that the you can send the most information when using a random code. As you approach the Shannon limit the signal becomes more noise-like as the encoding tends towards random. The waveforms we currently use for high data rate communications are already pretty close to the Shannon limit. I'm willing to bet the aliens will tolerate a 30% reduction in data rate if it mea…

There's a simple proof of this; an optimally compressed signal will have all symbols occuring with equal frequency (otherwise you'd be able to compress it more). So yes, an optimally compressed signal is indistinguishable from noise.

However that's the theory; in practice the range of frequencies the signal occurs over and how strong it is at each frequency tells you a lot about whether it's likely to be an information carrier or not.

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#33
post #31

Sci fi daydream here. What would it take for us to actually try to make such a signal ourselves in space? Really huge explosions? I suppose one weird way to see if they could be alien signals is see if we can imitate them. Of course, that would be no guarantee that we aren’t just making bird calls imitating the sounds of car alarms (or other birds for that matter). But, I mean, if we can detect these signals, if we c…

The Three Body Problem is a first-contact trilogy of books that starts just like this: Someone ponders what the most powerful thing in our area is (the sun) and then finds a way to influence it just enough so that it can send repeating signals. From there the alien armada heads our way and sets up the plot of the rest of the trilogy!

Would it really take an Armada? Coronavirus infected 40k people, we have some of these viruses in labs. I’d send one agile team and drop a nice virus on Earth (minimal viable product).

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Three Body Problem is a first-contact trilogy of books that starts just like this: Someone ponders what the most powerful thing in our area is (the sun) and then finds a way to influence it just enough so that it can send repeating signals. From there the alien armada heads our way and sets up the plot of the rest of the trilogy!

Would it really take an Armada? Coronavirus infected 40k people, we have some of these viruses in labs. I’d send one agile team and drop a nice virus on Earth (minimal viable product).

In the book, they start by sending as little as 3 protons, and it completely debilitates humanity.

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#35

One thing that I wonder is whether we could ever identify an alien communication signal as an alien signal is likely to be much more advanced. In that scenario, the alien civilization is likely to be able to send their signal at the Shannon limit. Additionally an advanced civilization is likely to be sending signals optically instead of over radio waves. But even if we assume radio waves, Shannon says that the you ca…

For those wondering about random codings, see Fountain Codes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_code

The military implementation is called Raptor Code (rapid tornado codings): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_code

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#37
post #3

Just imagine one day a true alien signal comes ringing, and what the public reaction would be? "Yeah, right. Again."

I guess it would depend how compelling the signal was. If it's just rogue radio waves with seemingly intelligent structure that the average person cannot understand, then the reaction would likely be "Yeah, right. Again". If it's some kind of encoded message containing information that can be decoded and verified by scientific communicators, perhaps not.

If I were in charge of broadcasting a communication signal into space, I'd make it a very obviously square wave, or something else that doesn't usually occur on its own. So it really depends on if the signal was meant to be seen as a discovery mechanism.

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#38

One thing that I wonder is whether we could ever identify an alien communication signal as an alien signal is likely to be much more advanced. In that scenario, the alien civilization is likely to be able to send their signal at the Shannon limit. Additionally an advanced civilization is likely to be sending signals optically instead of over radio waves. But even if we assume radio waves, Shannon says that the you ca…

>One thing that I wonder is whether we could ever identify an alien communication signal as an alien signal is likely to be much more advanced.

This has always been my thing.

Scientists: "Well we've been listening for radio signals but haven't heard anything yet!"

What if they discovered radio but decided it was way too easy for others to spy on it, and be detected off planet, so they just used wired connections for everything eventually moving to 99.9999999% efficient fiberoptics and then when they became a multi system empire, after discovering jump-space, they just switched to using fast messenger probes that could pop in and out of a system and carry large amounts of data to be tightly beamed to and from planets via laser.

Or what if they don't use radio because they began exploiting the Glarfnuralka stream for FTL communications via their subspace ansible implants 50 years after they discovered radio waves?

What if there's something,just right there that we've yet to discover that is far more efficient for communications from an energy standpoint? We discovered radio waves 150ish years ago, we detected the first gravity wave less than 5 years ago. What if it takes us another year, another 1,352 years, to discover Glarfnuralkians and develop a way to reliably transmit and receive data streams in that stream?

Or what if Glarfnuralkians are also considered to be primitive and inefficient due to the limited number of effective channels in the stream and the fact that random bits of the data area always lost no matter what and that the nearest intelligent hegemony is instead using Glurrybluron entanglement to transmit in real time between dedicated units that involve some cesium clocks, some variety of variable gravity lock, proper magnetic containment chambers for dual singularities (and we're talking relatively small singularities here, if your containment chambers are advanced enough you can get this thing down to a backpack sized device), an adequate power source (probably some sort of zero point module that draws from the quantum foam between universes), a way to inject electrons into the containment chambers and sufficient computational power from some universe-on-a-chip quantum ASIC.

What if they discovered radio but decided it was way too easy for others to spy on it, and be detected off planet, so they just used wired connections for everything eventually moving to 99.9999999% efficient fiberoptics and then when they became a multi system empire, after discovering jump-space, they just switched to using fast messenger probes that could pop in and out of a system and carry large amounts of data to be tightly beamed to and from planets via laser.

Or maybe they're just really into face to face communication because of some sort of cultural/religious custom.

There is also the possibility a sentient species could have sensory organs that involve part of the radio spectrum which would likely prevent them from adapting radio communications.

They could be a species that uses chemical communication, not unlike many insects. You could theoretically convey large amounts of data this way with a moderate amount of evolution.

Re: Powerful Radio Signal from Deep Space

#40

One thing that I wonder is whether we could ever identify an alien communication signal as an alien signal is likely to be much more advanced. In that scenario, the alien civilization is likely to be able to send their signal at the Shannon limit. Additionally an advanced civilization is likely to be sending signals optically instead of over radio waves. But even if we assume radio waves, Shannon says that the you ca…

Considering we don't have data to sample from, we have no idea what 'likely' is; That is the greatest challenge if "they're out there". We have no idea what to look for, because all we know about is from our own way of doing things.
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