Live data from Hacker News

Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

youtube.com

31–40 of 162 posts

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#31

I don’t think i’ve ever taken Media Lab “seriously” — or if i did, my age still started with a 1. To take media lab seriously is to miss the point. They aren’t supposed to be serious! If i may coin a term, they’re not even doing blue sky, they’re doing crack-of-dawn. 99% of what they think about will turn out to be a funny shadow on the wall from the laundry hamper that looked cool for a minute until the room brighte…

So what is its point?

Some organisations fund internal research so that they can demonstrate innovation to customers / investors, etc during marketing / sales, e.g. to differentiate themselves from competitors. If some of the ideas are in fact workable / profitable that is a bonus.

My first job in industry outside academia was as a programmer in the 'Advanced Techniques Department' (a.k.a. Toy Shop) of a traditional UK engineering company. We were quite often incorporated into the agenda of senior VIP visits, and we were instructed to focus on the innovative aspects of what we did. I realised later that the demos were actually great training for me as well, giving me insights into communicating with non-technical executives. I also got to work with European partner research groups in industry (spells in Denmark and Germany), which was also excellent experience.

Incidentally, the ATD had much better tooling for AI research (Lisp and a small fleet of Lisp machines) than I'd used for research at Uni (C / Unix). I was also introduced to proper software engineering discipline. My productivity (in terms of demo'd systems / capabilities) was much higher than it had been as a postgrad, which I quickly came to realise had been undisciplined hacking.

[edit - refined the argument a bit]

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#32

This is well known in academia and exist outside of Media Lab as well. For example, I asked a professor (not associated with the Media Lab) about using hype to get grants. He said: "It's just like the stock market right, money goes here, it goes there, it's all story telling. I have to tell stories too because if I don't, then other people will tell this story and get the money. But I think I can use it better than o…

A cousin of this is what one researcher in the field of evolutionary machine learning called "dullwashing" to me in a conversation about academic funding.

If he wants to do some really interesting somewhat outside-the-box work, he often has to find some way to make it look incredibly dull and inside-the-box and incremental in order to convince some funding bureaucrat to fund it.

Most money is dumb and flows in a herd-like manner into things that look superficially like things that have been successful in the past. This includes stock market money, government money, and yes even VC money. You often have to trick the world into funding genuinely interesting or productive work. Without a bit of marketing money will just chase the latest bubble or fad. It's like you have to save money from itself. If truly creative and productive people don't lay on the marketing, money will instead flow to charlatans who do... see also WeWork, Juicero, etc.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#34
I like his view on how interfaces should be self-revealing.

I used to feel dumb and waste time trying to figure things out, but then I decided that if I wouldn't get something quickly enough, that's because it was badly presented, and I had better discard it and move on. This approach saved me both much ego and time. (This can be read as a joke, but I'm mostly serious. I also use it when I design: I keep reworking things until they feel as easy to grasp as possible, and then only I can start to really build on top of them.)

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#35
post #26
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to tell stories too because if I don't.... Sounds like reputation afforded to academia (professors) might be inappropriate. Besides, science shouldn't be judged by reputation but by fact and result. The idea of evaluating the quality of an idea by one's social standing is sort of odd... for someone who should be preaching science.

This is what you get when you introduce market mechanisms into research institutions. If the researchers have to solicit external sources of finance, they effectively become (part time) sales people. As the financial sources are by definition external, the people behind them have no clue about the actual research. So what can the researchers do to close the sale, if the actual science won't work? They necessarily hav…

> So what can the researchers do to close the sale, if the actual science won't work?

Maybe the problem is that the science won't work and they're trying to spin it otherwise.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#36
MIT media labs does exactly what other academic labs do, just more visibly.

ie. go down promising areas, end up with no significant inferences and a lot of utile effort, and in very rare cases, make breakthrough contributions.

The key difference being that the things Media labs work on is usually in areas with underdefined academic landscapes, which makes it hard to make any significant progress.

Media labs is not the frontier of academic research that some make it out to be. Rather, it is just like other insignificant academic labs, in that they mostly produce duds. Media labs is just higher risk and higher reward.

However, the amount of media hype they generate definitely belies the amount of significant progress it produces.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#37
post #32

This is well known in academia and exist outside of Media Lab as well. For example, I asked a professor (not associated with the Media Lab) about using hype to get grants. He said: "It's just like the stock market right, money goes here, it goes there, it's all story telling. I have to tell stories too because if I don't, then other people will tell this story and get the money. But I think I can use it better than o…

A cousin of this is what one researcher in the field of evolutionary machine learning called "dullwashing" to me in a conversation about academic funding. If he wants to do some really interesting somewhat outside-the-box work, he often has to find some way to make it look incredibly dull and inside-the-box and incremental in order to convince some funding bureaucrat to fund it. Most money is dumb and flows in a herd…

> Most money is dumb and flows in a herd-like manner into things that look superficially like things that have been successful in the past. This includes stock market money, government money, and yes even VC money. You often have to trick the world into funding genuinely interesting or productive work.

The last few decades of US economic policy has been based on the idea that private investment is more effective than taxing and redistributing money. But as it turns out, it's not just the government that's dumb -- all large investors behave in this dumb, herd-like way. And at least governments are more comfortable spending money without expecting a return.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#38

This is well known in academia and exist outside of Media Lab as well. For example, I asked a professor (not associated with the Media Lab) about using hype to get grants. He said: "It's just like the stock market right, money goes here, it goes there, it's all story telling. I have to tell stories too because if I don't, then other people will tell this story and get the money. But I think I can use it better than o…

>they're really selling the image of technological progress.

That's such a broad brushstroke.

Consider, for example, Echo Nest's research in machine listening in Barry Vercoe's Music, Mind and Machine group. This all made it into Spotify when they acquired Echo Nest. His work led and pushed other researchers in the field at ISMIR, etc. Hard to downplay the impact of Spotify on our culture. This is not "hokum."

And as I shoulder-surfed the whole thing, I can tell you it started out as a crazy dream. When Brian Whitman and Barry began it, CPU power was meager, GPUs were scarcely recognized as general computation aids. It was mostly about music similarity instead of social features. (I like to think I helped Brian think that way, egoist I am). Even storing 1,000,000 songs was once difficult. This was in the AJAX and perl days.

But like Brian's daydream, many other projects there are daydreams. That's the point of the ML, to try the daydreams other people won't. Not to disrespect others for taking on research more likely to result in tangible results. In fact, that's very sane! So if you want to critique the place according to some personally-applied standards, that's great, that's your opinion, next.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#39

This is well known in academia and exist outside of Media Lab as well. For example, I asked a professor (not associated with the Media Lab) about using hype to get grants. He said: "It's just like the stock market right, money goes here, it goes there, it's all story telling. I have to tell stories too because if I don't, then other people will tell this story and get the money. But I think I can use it better than o…

Just to add another data point: I asked an Ivy League professor about hype and they said the exact opposite of your Ivy League professor. Anyway, that's certainly the hype part that your anecdote refers to. Now how about the hokum? Did your Ivy League professor draw a computer on a cardboard box and put a kid inside there? Or did they use it for a bona fide machine learning research project? I think those are fair qu…

Hmm it's a bit more subtle than that. There are all kinds of ways to misrepresent progress, the simplest way is to pick bogus metrics. For example, all of machine-learning based dialog system work uses metrics that were designed for machine translation ( basically n-gram overlaps ), this is an example of a metric that you can improve on but is meaningless. So the resulting system is very much the dog-and-pony show variety. Or people who use simulations to train and test ML systems, and say the metrics get better but do not address the sim2real gap.

> I asked an Ivy League professor about hype and they said the exact opposite of your Ivy League professor

The context matters, I have heard the opposite response as well, from a professor I was working for, while he was doing just that: packaging narratives w/o regard to how well the methods actually work. The honest take came at a wine-and-cheese party from a professor I was not working for. There is a real conflict of interest here, and if people stand to gain by withholding information, they will do Just that.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#40
post #37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cousin of this is what one researcher in the field of evolutionary machine learning called "dullwashing" to me in a conversation about academic funding. If he wants to do some really interesting somewhat outside-the-box work, he often has to find some way to make it look incredibly dull and inside-the-box and incremental in order to convince some funding bureaucrat to fund it. Most money is dumb and flows in a herd…

> Most money is dumb and flows in a herd-like manner into things that look superficially like things that have been successful in the past. This includes stock market money, government money, and yes even VC money. You often have to trick the world into funding genuinely interesting or productive work. The last few decades of US economic policy has been based on the idea that private investment is more effective than…

Yeah the supposed genius of private markets has been massively oversold.

I really think the power of capitalism lies not in some magical ability of markets to make good decisions but in the freedom it affords to route around bad decisions and the bureaucracies and corporate institutions that make them.

In a vertically integrated Soviet-style economy a single bad bureaucracy results in the total failure of that industry. It's not really possible to sidestep it; there is no "permission free innovation." In a free market those big dumb slugs still exist but it's at least possible for some people to go around them.

Post reply on HN