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Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

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31–40 of 197 posts

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#31
post #18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost. This affects general aviation as older planes will require avionics upgrades. Otherwise I’m excited for the sheer amount of data that will be made available to the public. Now you will be able to track all FAA registered planes

So no more low flying smugglers into and out of Canada/Mexico... wonder how they will adapt (beside going dark though they’d notice someone going dark after takeoff).

They simply won't turn their GPS on.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#32
post #8

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to…

This isn't about throwing away radar, it's about augmenting the current system with more accurate data for better and safer management of airspace.

Most airplanes already rely heavily on GPS for their own navigation. If GPS is being jammed (or having any other clear issue) they'll fall back to their many other redundant navigation instruments.

If you want to be scared, be scared about spoofing of ILS signals, where a couple of dozen feet of error can be fatal.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/the-r...

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#33
post #13
post #5

The same GPS the US Government reserves the right to reduce the precision when they feel like it? Seems risky idea to assume they will never do this.

Isn't low precision something like +/- 15 feet? For ATC, that seems more than good enough when they keep jets a mile+ apart. It just needs to be more precise than radar.

There are also ground based systems at airports which increase reliability / integrity for things like simultaneous parallel approaches. [1] says to within +/- 1m horizontal and vertical.

[1] https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Ground_Based_Augmentatio...

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#34

There was a talk at DEFCON about this in 2012 [1]. The main issue is a radar system gets its information from ground-based measurements, while a GPS system gets its information from air-based measurements that are later transmitted to the ground station. This means that those reports can be spoofed, or lied about, or absent entirely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk

Also: Spoofing is not theoretical. It has already been done: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/black-sea-ship-hacking-russi...

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#35

There was a talk at DEFCON about this in 2012 [1]. The main issue is a radar system gets its information from ground-based measurements, while a GPS system gets its information from air-based measurements that are later transmitted to the ground station. This means that those reports can be spoofed, or lied about, or absent entirely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk

Also: Spoofing is not theoretical. It has already been done: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/black-sea-ship-hacking-russi...

Not even spoofing the receiver; spoofing what the aircraft sends to the base station.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#36
post #5

The same GPS the US Government reserves the right to reduce the precision when they feel like it? Seems risky idea to assume they will never do this.

That is known as Selective Availability and according to the US Government there is no intention of enabling it again [1]. New GPS satellites are apparently being built without the Selective Availability capability [2].

[1] https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/faq/#on [2] https://archive.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=...

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#37
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no more low flying smugglers into and out of Canada/Mexico... wonder how they will adapt (beside going dark though they’d notice someone going dark after takeoff).

They simply won't turn their GPS on.

Won’t they have to before takeoff? Or will that not be a requirement?

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#38

There was a talk at DEFCON about this in 2012 [1]. The main issue is a radar system gets its information from ground-based measurements, while a GPS system gets its information from air-based measurements that are later transmitted to the ground station. This means that those reports can be spoofed, or lied about, or absent entirely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk

Also: Spoofing is not theoretical. It has already been done: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/black-sea-ship-hacking-russi...

Well, as in the beginning of wifi/cell networks and all such similar technologies, their priority was to make a first adequate and reliable system that reports position. And getting operators to adopt it. Defeating bad actors was not a major requirement.

Maybe if it's shown to be a great practical problem, they'll address it. If not, then no they won't. I'm guessing they won't.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They simply won't turn their GPS on.

Won’t they have to before takeoff? Or will that not be a requirement?

The people doing illegal activity with planes don't care about requirements or are paying people to overlook them ignoring the requirements.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They simply won't turn their GPS on.

Won’t they have to before takeoff? Or will that not be a requirement?

Drug smuggling planes might not be in full compliance with every single regulation.
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