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Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

cnn.com

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Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#31

According to the article Boeing has halted production, but this leaves the door open to producing them again in the future after design updates. I predict they'll try to rename the model and fly it again after making changes and certifying. That being said, I never want to fly on a 737 Max or whatever they plan to rebrand it as.

Yes, I imagine the rebranding will be as ineffective as Comcast rebranding as Xfinity, where everyone knows they are the same.

I don't know what you're talking about, Comcast has had amazing support the last few months in my area. We even had a rep come to our house, and leave a handwritten note on the door when we didn't answer, asking if we had any questions or concerns and to give them a call if there was anything they could do for us.

... I'm sure this has nothing to do with the city fiber to the home buildout that is going on in our neighborhood... ;-)

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#32
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re underestimating how much fear people have of flying. If there’s a plane that is considered “dangerous” then people are going to avoid it. It’s not like airlines losing your luggage which people just put up with.

I have many friends who fly a lot more than me, and I've never heard any of them mention the type of airplane as an issue. Most of them don't know the exact model or even brand of "that plane that was grounded".. I guess people in general rely on the government agencies to do this decision for us..

I've definitely looked up plane models, I've looked at airline records. Just this month I re-booked to asia via South Korea instead of Qatar because my flight went over Iran or near the border on the flight maps and the assassination was <24 hours old. I ended up in a middle seat trans pacific instead, but I don't regret that decision in hindsight at all.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#33

I can't wait to read a senior Boeing manager's future book about the way the company mishandled the development of the 737 Max and how the upper echelons of decision makers managed the ensuing crisis. How many screaming matches occurred between VPs and engineering directors behind closed doors, how many angry emails were exchanged, how many panicked phone calls from the investor relations department to Muilenberg, et…

What's incredible to me is how this could be allowed to happen. Are the higher echelons of these industries staffed by charlatans? Has something changed in the engineering culture? Did greed override diligence and if so, how was this allowed to happen when the consequences can be so catastrophic both to passengers and to the company? It just doesn't make sense to me how, with such high stakes, a company could manage to let things go so awry. Seems to me like the entire management team for years should have the entirety of their assets seized, as I assume they were very well rewarded for presiding over failure.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#34
post #30

According to the article Boeing has halted production, but this leaves the door open to producing them again in the future after design updates. I predict they'll try to rename the model and fly it again after making changes and certifying. That being said, I never want to fly on a 737 Max or whatever they plan to rebrand it as.

This will probably be the safest plane to fly on, considering the amount of scrutiny the FAA is now applying.

Would restarting Chernobyl make it the safest NPP considering the amount of scrutiny that it would be put through?

Maybe we should look into re-introducing Windows Vista, considering the scrutiny that it would require it must be the safest and most stable OS ever.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#36
EDIT: And an hour after writing this Boeing just now announcing (surprise, surprise) they don’t expect return-to-service until July and stock is currently trading down 5.5%)

I shorted BA for a few months based on many HN posts after the crashes, but covered my position after it seemed to stabilize at ~320. I think it will probably head lower, but as a general rule I try to find companies I believe in rather than companies I don’t.

It was a very interesting choice to maintain the dividend for now. I think they will have to revisit that and it will kick-off the next big swing downward.

Last week the WSJ reported [1] that they are in the process of raising a new $5 billion round. Now [2] the word on the street is they’re looking for $10 billion over 2 years - a “mid term” debt round, structured as a line they can draw on over several years - somehow this is supposed to limit the effect it will have on their debt rating. A significant Moody’s downgrade seems like it’s past due, and Moody’s recently announced they put BA “on review”. [3]

Their debt at the start of Q4 was $15 billion and then rose to $20 billion by the end of Q4. Back in 2018 it was closer to $12 billion. I wouldn’t be surprise to see it near $25 billion at the end of Q1.

Supposedly Boeing keeps about $10 billion in liquidity “available” but they’ve burned through that by now.

The “charges” they take against the MAX disaster which started at $5.6 billion could balloon as high as $20 billion as the ramifications continue to unfold. [4]

Lastly I would point out that over the last decade plus timeframe the FAA hollowed out as a regulatory agency into a box checker. Today they have as I understand it just ~750 total pilots and engineers on staff to review technical data from the plane manufacturers. The FAA said last year to do it themselves they would need 10,000 more. [5]

> “It would require roughly 10,000 more employees and another $1.8 billion for our certification office,” Elwell told the Senate subcommittee on aviation and space.

> The FAA Aircraft Certification Service had a budget of $239 million for fiscal 2019 and about 1,300 employees, 745 of whom are pilots, engineers and technical staff who oversee design approvals and production.

I recall news articles claiming Congress recently approved significant new funding for the FAA, but looking at their budget [6] PDF page 37 it seems like “Regulation & Certification” remains level-funded at $1.3 billion the last three years.

A more recent report on the MAX specifically [7] said;

> The report said the FAA had just 45 people in an office overseeing Boeing's Organization Designation Authority (ODA) and its 1,500 employees.

...

> The FAA's office oveseeing Boeing has just 24 engineers and they face a wide range of tasks to ensure compliance in overseeing Boeing's 737, 747, 767, 777, and 787 programs.

> The review added there are only two technical FAA staff assigned per Boeing program and some are "new engineers with limited airworthiness experience."

The full report which this article is excerpting I believe is this one. [8] See specifically PDF Page 47 but put down any objects you might be prone to throwing before beginning to read.

I would imagine engineers qualified to actual critically review detailed 737 specifications aren’t unemployed and take a long time to hire. How long will it take the FAA to even staff up to the point where they can start doing their job if they are only just now getting the money to hire? Pundits saying they expected the 737 return-to-service to happen before New Years and now say it’s happening any day now I think don’t comprehend the massive gap between what the FAA used to do and what they are now tasked with doing, and that they literally don’t have the qualified people in-house to even start doing much of this work. All that assumes necessary funding has even been appropriated and there are the people and the culture in place to even do the work. Big IFs.

To me that points to a extremely delayed return to service as new engineers are hired and brought on to critically review documentation which used to be rubber stamped — let alone dealing with the actual software failures and faulty design specifications which straight up didn’t/don’t conform to modern safety standards.

In short, my prediction is that BA will inevitably have to suspend its dividend, it will take a charge upwards of $20 billion for the MAX, return to service will be extremely delayed beyond analysts wildest expectations, they will be downgraded by Moody’s and their debt load will increase to nearly $30 billion over the course of 2020 into 2021, and there is a remote chance of a debt squeeze, and the company declaring bankruptcy and having to restructure.

I don’t currently own any position in Boeing (other than through holdings in the S&P500) and do not plan on initiating any BA position in the next 72 hours. This is not investment advice.

[1] - https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-considers-raising-debt-a...

[2] - https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/20/737-max-crisis-boeing-seeks-...

[3] - https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boeings-debt-on-review-for...

[4] - https://apple.news/AcnxFGCurRfW3l1BNvzr6aw

[5] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2019/03/27/want-...

[6] - https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/miss...

[7] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-boeing-faa-certificat...

[8] - https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/Final_JATR_Submit...

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, I never want to fly on a 737 Max or whatever they plan to rebrand it as. Self admittedly, I don't fly as frequently as I used to, but do they still put the model of plane you're flying on anywhere on the ticket? How can someone go about making sure you're not flying on this specific model?

Just look on FlightAware or similar. They've all got the historical record for a given route (though of course it's possible an airline might substitute after you've bought the ticket, it's unlikely; most flights fit a specific profile and most airlines have only a couple of models to fit that profile). The major users from North American airlines are Southwest (34 planes), Air Canada (24), American (24), United (14)…

I strongly doubt the overwhelming majority of consumers are going to cross reference booking details against an external site to avoid a specific plane unless there are planes falling out of the air on a daily basis. People may say they will, but in practice they'll look up the cheapest flight and book that, as usual.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#38
What is the cost to restart both the supply chain and production line? If this lasts long enough, then there are portions of the supply chain that will start to simply disappear as vendors go under or switch away to different customers and de-prioritize Boeing.

It isn't just the monetary cost to re-calibrate machining and tooling, also the staff time and monetary cost to fill in gaps that appeared during the shutdown, both material and vendor relationships. And an abundantly clear lesson (as if the domain experts in sourcing shouldn't know this already) from the debacle is that outsourcing is not plug-and-play: there will be both product and relationship re-alignment and re-certification going on anywhere vendors are swapped out in the supply chain.

If Boeing was forward-looking, then they would bite the bullet and keep production going, but use the downtime to crawl through every aspect of production to look for and fix any quality and safety-related concerns on the line (including absolute bottom-up authority for production line escalating concerns through to engineering and design) and in the supply chain. It massively slows down the production, which is perfectly fine right now. It wouldn't matter if they slowed to 10% of normal output, if the deliverable was absolute confidence in what is built on that line; they should have started this a long time ago when the shutdown passed 90 days.

Even after the design is amended, planes modified, re-certification awarded by all the aviation agencies around the world, there will be a titanic push to run the line as fast as possible. And if they don't completely debug every piece of that line to an inch of its life, there will be guaranteed production quality problems when it restarts, and if those problems lead to more crashes, Boeing is getting bailed out by taxpayers and unalterably changed. Better to keep the line on "warm standby" while debugging it before the pressure is on.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#39
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What browser still allows this?

I think there is a new way to bypass this; FF recently missed an autoplay video on Bloomberg (?). Arms race as usual.

You can't autostart it when the page loads anymore, but you can autostart it as soon as the user interacts with the page in any way (including scroll)

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#40
post #10

According to the article Boeing has halted production, but this leaves the door open to producing them again in the future after design updates. I predict they'll try to rename the model and fly it again after making changes and certifying. That being said, I never want to fly on a 737 Max or whatever they plan to rebrand it as.

I'm almost there, after reading about how much Boeing has spent on stock buybacks (5x all of R&D over the past six years) I think I'm going to start looking into which model typically services a route and avoid all modern Boeing planes. Boeing made a lot of executives super rich with buybacks and equity compensation, this led directly to the shoddy engineering choices.

> avoid all modern Boeing planes

First, if you think Airbus is any better, you should think again.

Second, what do you mean by "all modern Boeing planes"? If you just mean "planes designed after the merger with McDonnell Douglas", that's just the 787 and the 737 Max. The latter is grounded and the former only flies select long haul routes. For the average US business traveler they're a non-issue.

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