Kids do program – Experiences from the course • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#31

Post by jpindar » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

aedron wrote: post #9

jasonkester wrote: post #5

I've personally never been a fan of drag/drop puzzle-piece coding things like Scratch for teaching programming to kids. It just seems like it's sending them down this dead end path. It took me a long time to find something better, and I've finally settled on Pico-8. It's the perfect combination of a simplified language that you have to actually type out in a stripped down editor, but with built in sprite and sound-ef…

It's not a dead end path, it's not far from how Unity works (of course you may consider Unity a dead end path). I think your stance is needlessly puritan. At some point, the program has to actually do something and put it on the screen. Whether that is printing lines of text or moving a colorful sprite in some way is really not that different, except one is a lot more appealing to a young learner.

I wonder if Unity and other game engines/IDEs are missing out by not making kid's versions.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#32

Post by nickpsecurity » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #10

jasonkester wrote: post #5

I've personally never been a fan of drag/drop puzzle-piece coding things like Scratch for teaching programming to kids. It just seems like it's sending them down this dead end path. It took me a long time to find something better, and I've finally settled on Pico-8. It's the perfect combination of a simplified language that you have to actually type out in a stripped down editor, but with built in sprite and sound-ef…

QBasic's loss should be deeply mourned. Say what you will about it, it was almost the perfect beginner's environment. Simple, english-like syntax, good built-in documentation, support for graphics and sound right out of the box, and an IDE with a debugger.

I got started with QBasic IDE. FreeBASIC was a nice replacement on the language/compiler side of things. I don't know if there's comparable IDE's. I found but haven't tried FBIDE.

https://www.freebasic.net/

http://www.fbide.freebasic.net/

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#33

Post by stojano » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

hmlwilliams wrote: post #4

Thank you for posting this, I also volunteer in a local school running a Code Club. I would be very much interested to know how you handle differences in age group. I sometimes struggle as the group ranges in age from 4/5 yo to 11 yo. Finding suitable material that can be approachable for all is nigh on impossible and being only one individual I do not have the capacity to have multiple courses running in the same ho…

Hi

The first time I had this course, the kids were between 8 and 10. The differences in cognitive behaviour were minimal. Just some of them were a little bit slower than the others, but at the end they helped each other and everyone was finished at time. I see, 4/5yrs would be much trickier.

For our next course it will be a little bit more "diverse". The oldest application is 14, and some of the former kids are coming again. So it will be the whole spectrum 8-14. I will see in the first lessons how I can separate them or offer different materials.

This time I'll offer some intro to Python. Maybe, one or the other will then grab this path.

I admit preparation of the materials was quit time consuming... more as I thought in the beginning it would be. But for the second course, I have already a bunch of prepared stuff.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#34

Post by lubujackson » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

racl101 wrote: post #27

freediver wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just intuitevely. Hard to imagine becoming a great cook by pointing and clicking. Or a great pianist by pointing and clicking. A big part of what makes us human is what continous practice does to our brains.

Have to agree with this. I find that Scratch removes the dangers and perils of programming for any level, which, unfortunately, are the parts that you learn the most from. Think about when you began to code. You tried printing 'Hello World' and that was good. Then you tried doing some more, and quickly ran into some trouble. At this crucial point, is where you are bound to learn the most. Troubleshooting is part and…

That is thinking like an adult, though. First, hook kids on the joy of creating something interactive THEN they can develop the rigor to improve and learn more so they can do more. But if they start by hunting for missing semicolons they aren't going to want to bother continuing. Typing and syntax aren't programming anyway, just the most common input method.

I started coding by copying BASIC programs out of magazine (the olden days) and it was excruciating as a child limited by attention and focus. I never really learned anything about why things worked or didn't until much older. Slapping things together for fun and extending things to try new ideas seems way more effective to me.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#35

Post by CDSlice » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

HlessClaudesman wrote: post #7

Anyone know why Scratch lite is so limited on the iOS? My 2 year old has nearly mastered all the features but I'm hesitant to let him loose on a laptop.

With Scratch 3.0 you can run the full web based Scratch on any iOS device, although I doubt it would be a good experience on anything other than an iPad.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#36

Post by tmaly » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

I had a very similar experience last month teaching elementary kids Scratch.

I did a group activity building a few games. Then I challenged kids to create there own versions. Some of the older elementary kids really did a great job making their own games. They want me to come back in to teach more.

I have been working on an online course for kids on the side since Summer. They definitely enjoy the creativity aspects.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#37

Post by tmaly » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #22

freediver wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has started programming at age 8, I find Scratch inadequate. It may teach kids how to code, but it doesn't teach coding. There is something in writing every letter of a command when you are a kid. There is something that gets born inside when you write and execute this for the first time: 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 RUN My kid is 8 now and I plan to introduce her to an online C64 emulator and BASIC. If…

If it does not stick, there is nothing that Scratch will be able to do. Those are some pretty strong words. Did you do any research on this topic?

If you browse the scrath projects online, people make full video game clones in scratch.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#38

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #18

jasonkester wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we're talking past each other. Scratch literally has little graphical puzzle pieces that you drag around and dock together to create programs. Beyond that it's pretty similar to the thing I (and you) recommend.

The purpose of the puzzle pieces is to prevent syntax errors, right? Do kids (or anyone, now that I consider the question) really need to deal with syntax errors?

Yes, just like they do when talking.

The problem is not syntax, the problem is that they're bad at typing on a keyboard.

I suspect it's mostly because the keyboard is too big and stiff...

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#39

Post by Wowfunhappy » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

racl101 wrote: post #27

freediver wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just intuitevely. Hard to imagine becoming a great cook by pointing and clicking. Or a great pianist by pointing and clicking. A big part of what makes us human is what continous practice does to our brains.

Have to agree with this. I find that Scratch removes the dangers and perils of programming for any level, which, unfortunately, are the parts that you learn the most from. Think about when you began to code. You tried printing 'Hello World' and that was good. Then you tried doing some more, and quickly ran into some trouble. At this crucial point, is where you are bound to learn the most. Troubleshooting is part and…

The kids in my class run into all sorts of standard programming problems.

Two girls was creating a program where multiple characters had a conversation. Each character paused a set amount of time before saying its next line, and because the pauses weren't timed correctly, the characters kept talking over each other.

We draw a timeline together so the students could understand what was going on. The kids realized that every time one character was adjusted, every other character's code needed updates to match, and that this would get increasingly complicated as more lines of dialogue were added.

We talked through adjustments that could be made to lower the complexity. I suggested that when one character finishes speaking, it should "broadcast" a signal that it's the next character's turn. I don't remember if they actually refactored it, but they understood the problem-space and tradeoff.

Re: Kids do program – Experiences from the course

#40

Post by ggggtez » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #21

szopa wrote: post #2

Scratch is right now my 6yo's favorite toy. It beats the Lego robot because you don't have to worry about having the right parts and you can concentrate on the "fun parts," that is programming. What really amazes me was how different the progression looked from what I was expecting. The move from "the dinosaur moves and that is fun" to fully fleshed mini games took me by surprise. No linearity there. What I really ap…

As someone who has started programming at age 8, I find Scratch inadequate. It may teach kids how to code, but it doesn't teach coding. There is something in writing every letter of a command when you are a kid. There is something that gets born inside when you write and execute this for the first time: 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 RUN My kid is 8 now and I plan to introduce her to an online C64 emulator and BASIC. If…

I politely disagree... My first programming was using the scaffolding of game engines. After a few years of those kinds of toys was I exposed to C, where I only knew how to use ASCII printed to the screen as output.

For a while, I used both the game engine and C. There were many ideas I wanted to try, that I could simply execute faster with the majority of the engine already in place. Exposure to C let me do things the game engine didn't support, but at the cost of losing graphics.

If your kid doesn't like C64... it doesn't mean "there is nothing that scratch will be able to do". Scratch supports graphics, sound, and more. C64 supports, at best, blocky graphics with ~16 total colors. And even then, the nuances of sprite limits, etc... It can get in the way.

Kids like games. Don't underestimate the value of graphics and sound support as a motivating factor.