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How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

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Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#31

Post by growlist »

tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this training is being rolled out in many companies across the UK: training based on nonsense. What's deeply insulting - and worrying - is that this should be pushed on educated, intelligent people whose jobs in no small part depend on sniffing out bullshit. Do they think we won't find out the truth? Are the management so clueless/compromised that they actually believe in it? IDK.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#32

Post by dgellow »

_def wrote: post #22
dgellow wrote: post #9

> · Red: dominant, driven, solution focussed. > · Blue: analytic, careful, meticulous > · Green: patient, considerate, nice > · Yellow: extroverted, creative, verbal Damn. I spent so much of my time and energy pushing back exactly on this bullshit when I was young. That's part of the curriculum of mandatory courses I had to take during an apprenticeship in Switzerland. Expensive and mandatory courses paid by students…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

Thanks for sharing the English article. I decided to share the french version because it has way more details (it's a huge phenomenon here), but that's for sure more interesting if people can actually read the content :)

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#33

Post by lemagedurage »

How come dividing personality into introverted and extroverted (1 dimension) is generally accepted, but dividing personality into more dimensions (disc has 2, mbti has 4, big five has 5, etc), people tend to feel uneasy (e. g. "I am more than just this")?

All traps aside (confirmation bias, overdoing it), I do believe these categorizations do make sense as a way to learn about behavior, especially for the general public. That people misinterpret the meaning of the results is obviously bad, but it doesn't invalidate the theory.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#34

Post by martindbp »

dkdklk wrote: post #13
achow wrote: post #2

Couldn't help but check that it is rated 4.6/5 (113 reviews) in Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Surrounded-Idiots-Behavior-Effectivel... Excerpt from one of the top review.. The book really helps you to understand why 'blues' ask 100 questions, want to problem solve all the time, always ask for more information, and can be cold and distant instead of being emotional creatures. Yellows on the other hand are always day…

> Looks like it is not only Sweden but other places as well. As an American it’s a little reassuring to know that despite some economic advantages, the Swedes are also just a bunch of easily impressionable idiots.

What economic advantages?

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#35

Post by dgellow »

pintxo wrote: post #14
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Well, it's a good way for management to show they did ... something.

This. I believe that's the main reason those tests exist. They are used by management as a legal/PR protection.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#36

Post by maze-le »

fullshark wrote: post #12

These types of things may not be science, but they are so popular and will always be popular because they are useful heuristics to make sense of the chaos of dealing with humans.

They might be heuristics, but how can they ever be useful? They can neither be used in the analysis of a person nor are they predictive...

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#37

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Discrimination training certainly has a function in reminding people of what they are prohibited from doing (legally or by policy), because then they can't claim ignorance of it later. It also has the benefit of reminding people to watch their own behaviour.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#38

Post by darepublic »

dgellow wrote: post #9

> · Red: dominant, driven, solution focussed. > · Blue: analytic, careful, meticulous > · Green: patient, considerate, nice > · Yellow: extroverted, creative, verbal Damn. I spent so much of my time and energy pushing back exactly on this bullshit when I was young. That's part of the curriculum of mandatory courses I had to take during an apprenticeship in Switzerland. Expensive and mandatory courses paid by students…

I took this stuff in an introductory college course. I kind of knew it was bs but it was also easy to understand and score an easy mark. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to tell the emperor they have no clothes.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#39

Post by weberc2 »

vertex-four wrote: post #25
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

The problem is that the people suggesting the better ways are usually... promoting rather unpalatable ideas. Often either that there is no discrimination in the workplace ever and so we should stop talking about it, or that discrimination in the workplace is in fact normal and healthy. I'd love to see a way of creating healthy, non-discriminatory workplaces, especially in industries that are usually pretty terrible.

Is it unpalatable to ask questions about how much discrimination exists and against whom it is directed? The only “evidence” I’m aware of are implicit association tests and Goldin’s study of blind auditions, neither of which demonstrate discrimination. And asking this question often just gets me downvoted. If we are so certain that there is discrimination and tons of it, why is the real evidence treated as a closely guarded secret while we proudly circulate the debunked evidence? Please note that this is the opposite of “we should not talk about it”.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#40

Post by INTPenis »

lemagedurage wrote: post #33

How come dividing personality into introverted and extroverted (1 dimension) is generally accepted, but dividing personality into more dimensions (disc has 2, mbti has 4, big five has 5, etc), people tend to feel uneasy (e. g. "I am more than just this")? All traps aside (confirmation bias, overdoing it), I do believe these categorizations do make sense as a way to learn about behavior, especially for the general pub…

MBTI actually has 12 archetypes, hard to compare that with introvert and extrovert.

I often reference being introverted but it's important to understand that it's a scale and everyone is somewhere on that scale. It's not binary. But it does help explain why I get tired from over exposure to strangers, but can go for hours in the company of family and close friends.

And yeah I agree these things should only be used as guides or aides. I still feel my life changed when I first read my MBTI description. It was spooky, like someone had read my mind.

But how does that help me? It mostly doesn't. What has helped me the most daily is knowing my limits, that I have a social battery and letting myself recharge that.

And completely irrelevant to this topic my biggest aide was to understand how my stomach controlled my temper. It sounds so cliché but regular complete meals and sleep has helped me more than any psychologist.

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