I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left • Hacker News Board

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#31

Post by throwlaplace » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

suddenexample wrote: post #24

nickv wrote: post #5

Google, in my mind, is the quintessential "You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain" story. (To be fair, since this all is subjective, I do believe Google 2009 would consider this behavior counter to it's values and the values of the people it attracted.) The question I have is are there ways to stay true to values (which in some cases might be in direct opposition to growth a…

I'm always a bit taken aback by the heat that Google gets for even thinking about breaking into the Chinese market. Microsoft is in China and has active US military contracts. Apple is in China. Yet it's Google that gets the bad rap for trying to get into China and then ultimately turning down billions of dollars in revenue and data.

that's because google won over hearts and minds with "do no evil" so people feel betrayed because they invested themselves in the ideology of the company. it's mostly their fault for taking branding seriously.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#32

Post by methodin » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

Are there any good companies on the stock market? Seems like inevitably they either go under or inch further towards evil over time.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#33

Post by sounds » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

sk55 wrote: post #19

The timing of his change of heart seems politically motivated so I’d take a lot of what’s he saying with a grain of salt. He doesn’t disclose that he’s running for Congress in the article and it seems very convenient to share these opinions as soon as he’s running for office.

I disagree.

Running for Congress is consistent with his stated goal at the end of the article: "No longer can massive tech companies like Google be permitted to operate relatively free from government oversight. As soon as Google executives were asked by Congress about Project Dragonfly and Google’s commitment to free expression and human rights, they assured Congress that the project was exploratory and it was subsequently shut down."

If he ended the article with, "Vote for me! Maine 2020!" It would sound highly self-serving. I believe he simply doesn't see his campaign as relevant to what he's writing here.

This is his retrospective on his time at Google.

He may post other things that combine the two, but this one is clearly focused on the things he experienced while working for one of the largest corporations in the world.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#34

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

suddenexample wrote: post #24

nickv wrote: post #5

Google, in my mind, is the quintessential "You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain" story. (To be fair, since this all is subjective, I do believe Google 2009 would consider this behavior counter to it's values and the values of the people it attracted.) The question I have is are there ways to stay true to values (which in some cases might be in direct opposition to growth a…

I'm always a bit taken aback by the heat that Google gets for even thinking about breaking into the Chinese market. Microsoft is in China and has active US military contracts. Apple is in China. Yet it's Google that gets the bad rap for trying to get into China and then ultimately turning down billions of dollars in revenue and data.

It's viewed as a betrayal of whatever ethical/moral core Google claimed to have originally, at least by employees and customers who bought into the hype early on and didn't realize that Google is ultimately just another big tech company with shareholders.

As a former employee it never really surprised me that the company would want to move back into China, but it did surprise me a bit that they were doing so under heavy secrecy. I suppose in practice they were right to want to keep it secret (employees were unhappy) but on the other hand it's impossible to keep secrets in that company so they should have known it would leak eventually.

Microsoft, Apple, etc. doing business in China is unsurprising in comparison since we all know what big tech companies with 10k+ employees are about: Making money.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#35

Post by throwlaplace » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #30

suddenexample wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always a bit taken aback by the heat that Google gets for even thinking about breaking into the Chinese market. Microsoft is in China and has active US military contracts. Apple is in China. Yet it's Google that gets the bad rap for trying to get into China and then ultimately turning down billions of dollars in revenue and data.

The rest of them have been open about the fact they are ruthless profit making centers focused only on money and you shut up and stay in line or else you're toast. Google's model was "don't be evil" and for years went on the image that they are fighting for the public good and that they were an example of the ability to be principle centered, do good for the world, and get stinking rich at the same time. Now that the…

>They were able to cash in on this image of moral superiority and principle first for years and it gave them a leg up

okay but honestly how silly is it to take a company's branding to heart? like are we all children that believe in santa claus too?

>do good for the world, and get stinking rich at the same time

i'm old enough now to understand that these two things are mutually exclusive because the latter necessarily involves exploitation (thereby doing net evil rather than net good).

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#36

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

travmatt wrote: post #13

fghtr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> are there ways to stay true to values (which in some cases might be in direct opposition to growth and profit taking) with the way our society is structured? Purism is trying to do exactly this by being Social Purpose Corporation: https://puri.sm/about/social-purpose/ . However, I would not call them a "major company" yet.

Also called social benefit corporations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation If the company doesn’t have their values and goals listed in the articles of incorporation, then they have no legal obligation to follow them.

One common criticism I've heard of benefit corporations is that a hostile takeover or series of leadership changes can result in a situation where the values/goals are just stripped out intentionally, rendering it a normal corporation. Alternately, strip the assets and rights to leave the benefit corporation a husk and transfer everything to a non-benefit corp. It definitely makes me wonder how robust a setup like a B corporation can actually be once unrestrained capitalism gets to act on it for 5-10 years.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#37

Post by trevor-e » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #12

This is a repost of an article with 300 comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21935446

And this one doesn't even link to the Medium article, it's some other site that "sources" from it and doesn't even show the author's name. What's the point of write.as?

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#38

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

sounds wrote: post #33

sk55 wrote: post #19

The timing of his change of heart seems politically motivated so I’d take a lot of what’s he saying with a grain of salt. He doesn’t disclose that he’s running for Congress in the article and it seems very convenient to share these opinions as soon as he’s running for office.

I disagree. Running for Congress is consistent with his stated goal at the end of the article: "No longer can massive tech companies like Google be permitted to operate relatively free from government oversight. As soon as Google executives were asked by Congress about Project Dragonfly and Google’s commitment to free expression and human rights, they assured Congress that the project was exploratory and it was subse…

Let's not fall into the populist trap of painting everything corporations do with the worst intentions while offering no skepticism to someone trying to get our vote.

Both need to be evaluated critically.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#39

Post by tharne » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

suddenexample wrote: post #24

nickv wrote: post #5

Google, in my mind, is the quintessential "You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain" story. (To be fair, since this all is subjective, I do believe Google 2009 would consider this behavior counter to it's values and the values of the people it attracted.) The question I have is are there ways to stay true to values (which in some cases might be in direct opposition to growth a…

I'm always a bit taken aback by the heat that Google gets for even thinking about breaking into the Chinese market. Microsoft is in China and has active US military contracts. Apple is in China. Yet it's Google that gets the bad rap for trying to get into China and then ultimately turning down billions of dollars in revenue and data.

I think a lot of this has to do with how much self-congratulating google has engaged in over the years around ethics. They set very high expectations, boasted about it, then fell very short.

What you're seeing in people's reactions is disappointment. No one's ever seen Microsoft as an ethical company, so no one bats an eye when they enter the Chinese market and embrace the questionable ethics of the Chinese government.

That doesn't make it right, but it certainly gets less attention.

Re: I Was Google’s Head of International Relations. Here’s Why I Left

#40

Post by kevingadd » Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

skizm wrote: post #21

LiquidSky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that "Don't Be Evil" was all PR nonsense from the beginning that we naively gobbled up.

The article does say Google risked all their China money at one point to stay true to their "don't be evil" mantra. They turned heel only recently. I'd say they genuinely believed and practiced it for a while, but once the upper management started to get infected with business types instead of technologists, that was the beginning of the end.

There's a question to be asked, though: Is it not PR nonsense just because employees believe it enough to act on it?

Or put another way: If it's really something the company believed in, why didn't the early moves out of China come from the top down ('do no evil' is a company philosophy so obviously the company heads like larry and sergey would be on board, right?) and why didn't the modern moves back in get rejected by the company heads?

In practice it seems like it was aspirational ('let's be nice!') instead of a true mantra or rule or even a guideline. If it was really core from the beginning would they really have dropped it wholesale?